Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Yossarian]

Were the Nazis Socialists?

What’s the difference between National Socialists and every other kind of socialist?

www.britannica.com

Hitler was not a socialist or a left-winger. He murdered minorities, weakened unions and worked with private industrialists. Sorry, but this ridiculous and revisionist.

 

[Yossarian]

Were the Nazis Socialists?

What’s the difference between National Socialists and every other kind of socialist?

www.britannica.com

But to quote the article you sent:

Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way, and certainly not after 1934.

 

[earl]

And that's the issue. I've tried to engage in rational debate but they're not interested. It's not even the viewpoints that bother me, it's the constant childish trolling and name-calling.

My take is that they aren't interested in rational discussion where you use facts and then have different opinions on the facts.

It's about tribalism. They want the left to be this massive conspiracy to overtake their lives and those on the right are the freedom fighters. It's so dramatic and so far removed from reality.

 

[Yossarian]

I think the judicial system should stop these cases going further. I understand what you are stating but I can't see this case sticking even if he was found guilty.

He would appeal.

I expect the legal system to be above politics. I accept this isn't the case but I think we should take a step back and reflect on the role of the legal system.

Of course and that's the role of the Police and DPP. I disagree on your assessment but it's possible. It's no slamdunk but I thought it was a reasonable case noting I haven't heard all the evidence.

 

[Yossarian]

My take is that they aren't interested in rational discussion where you use facts and then have different opinions on the facts.

It's about tribalism. They want the left to be this massive conspiracy to overtake their lives and those on the right are the freedom fighters. It's so dramatic and so far removed from reality.

Agreed. It's disappointing given there are good discussions to be had. You're correct about this obsession with some grouping everyone they consider "left" as some combined conspiratorial collective with a single viewpoint. These people have clearly never seen an ALP annual meeting!

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

But to quote the article you sent:

Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way, and certainly not after 1934.

Again, it shall be obvious that the "Nazis" were "socialists" between 1919-1923 and one can argue even until 1930s.

 

[TrueTiger]

He was and is completely and utterly incompetent. He was an utter failure and more than likely the worst president of all time.

You are entitled to your opinion but Trumpism has been an absolute failure and thankfully people appear to be waking up to this reality.

Why do you state that he is the worst President ever,because thats YOUR view...I suppose you loved Bush when he sent young men and women to war over a false claim of WMD...
How about the dope Obama who conned a nation with his calm talk of peace while he over saw other wars while in his presidency...
Trump will be in the leadership again,in what capacity I dont know,but people attend his rallies,support him and love him...Biden has 100 at his rallies Trump has thousands,and yet the dummies think Biden is a leader...(s)elected Pres,different from an elected Pres..
Before you go off on your belittling me tangent...Im entitled to my opinion as a decent human being,Im not delusional,I have a great job and family,we can all have varying opinions Earl.this is mine so dont lower yourself by calling me a conspiracy theorist or dellusional,that never ends well on this forum...AND you are correct,people are waking up to the corrupt incompetant DEMOCRATS...

 

[earl]

You're correct about this obsession with some grouping everyone they consider "left" as some combined conspiratorial collective with a single viewpoint.

It's hilarious especially when they have the same opinion on basically every issue.

They've created this system that is out to get them and it's everywhere they look.

I stated for instance and we can disagree on the court system. My view on climate change isn't that the world is ending and we are dying but I also believe climate change is real. We can have nuanced viewpoints but they don't seem to have nuanced viewpoints.

 

[Yossarian]

Again, it shall be obvious that the "Nazis" were "socialists" between 1919-1923 and one can argue even until 1930s.

Again, it shall be obvious that the "Nazis" were "socialists" between 1919-1923 and one can argue even until 1930s.

No that’s not what your source says and your summary misconstrues the evidence. It’s true that before the Night of the Long Knives the NSDAP had socialist elements. But to say the party as a whole was socialist or that Hitler was a lefty is unsupported. Your article makes it clear that Hitler was not a socialist and prominent members of the socialist rump left in the party were disillusioned enough by 1930 to leave the party.

 

[Magpie_Magic]

Despite many bombastic statements often filled with some BS Trump done more for the marginal in the U.S. than anybody else except for JFK.

Nothing like opportunity, a strong economy and peace to encourage tolerance and self respect leading to wider acceptance .

Trump to a certain respect broke the shackles of American deep state and neo conservatives upending to a large degree a cycle of sponsoring foreign coups, wars declared or otherwise.

For this he deserves some credit.

On the other hand I can't think of any single useful policy achievement from the Biden administration.

His foreign policy warmongering and brinkmanship is actually quite pathetic.

 

[hugh1954]

Why do you state that he is the worst President ever,because thats YOUR view...I suppose you loved Bush when he sent young men and women to war over a false claim of WMD...
How about the dope Obama who conned a nation with his calm talk of peace while he over saw other wars while in his presidency...
Trump will be in the leadership again,in what capacity I dont know,but people attend his rallies,support him and love him...Biden has 100 at his rallies Trump has thousands,and yet the dummies think Biden is a leader...(s)elected Pres,different from an elected Pres..
Before you go off on your belittling me tangent...Im entitled to my opinion as a decent human being,Im not delusional,I have a great job and family,we can all have varying opinions Earl.this is mine so dont lower yourself by calling me a conspiracy theorist or dellusional,that never ends well on this forum...AND you are correct,people are waking up to the corrupt incompetant DEMOCRATS...

Truth takes a back seat with these two as they look into their one way mirror, thankfully the clown Biden will be placed under a legal microscope now and the fleas will start deserting his carcass of an administration. Great post TT

 

[earl]

Why do you state that he is the worst President ever,because thats YOUR view.

Lot's of people who agree with this assessment. He will be remembered as the worst or one of the worst presidents of all time.

1. He completely failed his country when the pandemic came and people died because of this.
2. He tried to overthrow a democratic election.
3. He engaged in activities like trying to coerce people to pervert the justice and democratic system.

..I suppose you loved Bush when he sent young men and women to war over a false claim of WMD...

No this was wrong but I think he was played.

How about the dope Obama who conned a nation with his calm talk of peace while he over saw other wars while in his presidency...

Obama to me was fantastic.

Trump will be in the leadership again,in what capacity I dont know,but people attend his rallies,support him and love him...Biden has 100 at his rallies Trump has thousands,and yet the dummies think Biden is a leader...(s)elected Pres,different from an elected Pres..

Biden was democratically elected. Nothing else matters.

Im entitled to my opinion as a decent human being,

You are entitled to an opinion but that is completely different to stating your opinion has any validity or facts.

Im not delusional,I have a great job and family,we can all have varying opinions Earl.this is mine so dont lower yourself by calling me a conspiracy theorist or dellusional,that never ends well on this forum...AND you are correct,people are waking up to the corrupt incompetant DEMOCRATS...

I will call anyone who says the things you have stated delusional and a conspiracy theorist.

Trump didn't win the election and stating differently is delusional and the domain of a conspiracy theorist.

Having the right to an opinion does not mean your opinion is valid.

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

another popular myth - Mussolini was "anti socialists"
In the real history (as a different to cooked history

No that’s not what your source says and your summary misconstrues the evidence. It’s true that before the Night of the Long Knives the NSDAP had socialist elements. But to say the party as a whole was socialist or that Hitler was a lefty is unsupported. Your article makes it clear that Hitler was not a socialist and prominent members of the socialist rump left in the party were disillusioned enough by 1930 to leave the party.

My claim: Nazis were the "real" socialists 1919 - 1923
Evidence, from my source:
In 1919 a Munich locksmith named Anton Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (DAP; German Workers’ Party). Political parties were still a relatively new phenomenon in Germany, and the DAP—renamed the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP; National Socialist German Workers’ Party, or Nazi Party) in 1920—was one of several fringe players vying for influence in the early years of the Weimar Republic. It is entirely possible that the Nazis would have remained a regional party, struggling to gain recognition outside Bavaria, had it not been for the efforts of Adolf Hitler. Hitler joined the party shortly after its creation, and by July 1921 he had achieved nearly total control of the Nazi political and paramilitary apparatus.

BTW, Hitler joined Drexler's party, so he was a member of DAP, and NSDAP, and they were the real socialists (in Marx's definition - Arbeiter Partei).

 

[TrueTiger]

Lot's of people who agree with this assessment. He will be remembered as the worst or one of the worst presidents of all time.

1. He completely failed his country when the pandemic came and people died because of this.
2. He tried to overthrow a democratic election.
3. He engaged in activities like trying to coerce people to pervert the justice and democratic system.



No this was wrong but I think he was played.



Obama to me was fantastic.


Biden was democratically elected. Nothing else matters.



You are entitled to an opinion but that is completely different to stating your opinion has any validity or facts.



I will call anyone who says the things you have stated delusional and a conspiracy theorist.

Trump didn't win the election and stating differently is delusional and the domain of a conspiracy theorist.

Having the right to an opinion does not mean your opinion is valid.

Lot's of people who agree with this assessment. He will be remembered as the worst or one of the worst presidents of all time.

1. He completely failed his country when the pandemic came and people died because of this.
2. He tried to overthrow a democratic election.
3. He engaged in activities like trying to coerce people to pervert the justice and democratic system.



No this was wrong but I think he was played.



Obama to me was fantastic.


Biden was democratically elected. Nothing else matters.



You are entitled to an opinion but that is completely different to stating your opinion has any validity or facts.



I will call anyone who says the things you have stated delusional and a conspiracy theorist.

Trump didn't win the election and stating differently is delusional and the domain of a conspiracy theorist.

Having the right to an opinion does not mean your opinion is valid.

I agree to disagree with you Earl,my opinion may not be valid in you estimation but then again neither is yours in my estimation...

 

[earl]

Despite many bombastic statements often filled with some BS Trump done more for the marginal in the U.S. than anybody else except for JFK.

Nothing like opportunity, a strong economy and peace to encourage tolerance and self respect leading to wider acceptance .

Trump to a certain respect broke the shackles of American deep state and neo conservatives upending to a large degree a cycle of sponsoring foreign coups, wars declared or otherwise.

Holy smoke batman.

So Trump did more for people because he created a strong economy and promoted tolerance and self respect.

Do you mean in the way he has bought the Republican party together.

Trump the new Dalai Lamai.

 

[Yossarian]

another popular myth - Mussolini was "anti socialists"
In the real history (as a different to cooked history


My claim: Nazis were the "real" socialists 1919 - 1923
Evidence, from my source:
In 1919 a Munich locksmith named Anton Drexler founded the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (DAP; German Workers’ Party). Political parties were still a relatively new phenomenon in Germany, and the DAP—renamed the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP; National Socialist German Workers’ Party, or Nazi Party) in 1920—was one of several fringe players vying for influence in the early years of the Weimar Republic. It is entirely possible that the Nazis would have remained a regional party, struggling to gain recognition outside Bavaria, had it not been for the efforts of Adolf Hitler. Hitler joined the party shortly after its creation, and by July 1921 he had achieved nearly total control of the Nazi political and paramilitary apparatus.

BTW, Hitler joined Drexler's party, so he was a member of DAP, and NSDAP, and they were the real socialists (in Marx's definition - Arbeiter Partei).

Okay your argument is shifting here. If you're saying that the NDSAP was a socialist party before Hitler joined, maybe. We're talking very low numbers so personalities mattered. But as your source notes, as Hitler started to dominate the party it became decreasingly less socialist and by the time they take power they're certainly not a socialist party. None of this supports the idea Hitler was a leftist.

Mussolini is a different story. He certainly was or claimed to be a socialist when he started. He was also a winds of change kind of guy. Reagan was a big lefty when he started. People change as their beliefs are influenced by their experiences and observations.

This "real" v "cooked" thing does you no favours.

 

[Magpie_Magic]

Hitler was not a socialist or a left-winger. He murdered minorities, weakened unions and worked with private industrialists. Sorry, but this ridiculous and revisionist.

The reality is both your and in @InBenjiWeTrust posts re this topic are accurate at different times during the development and subsequent democratically elected ascent to power of the NAZI party.

And as for murdering minorities, weakening unions and working with private industrialists the same is true for far left regimes.

 

[earl]

Okay your argument is shifting here. If you're saying that the NDSAP was a socialist party before Hitler joined, maybe. We're talking very low numbers so personalities mattered. But as your source notes, as Hitler started to dominate the party it became decreasingly less socialist and by the time they take power they're certainly not a socialist party. None of this supports the idea Hitler was a leftist.

Mussolini is a different story. He certainly was or claimed to be a socialist when he started. He was also a winds of change kind of guy. Reagan was a big lefty when he started. People change as their beliefs are influenced by their experiences and observations.

This "real" v "cooked" thing does you no favours.

The only point that is valid here is that the extreme right and the extreme left look very similar. It's fascinating to me because these extremists appear to on one hand argue for a smaller government and individual rights but in practice they support Trump who clearly wants a bigger more autocratic government.

Hitler was the same. He got into power via voting but then perverted the system to stay in power. This is exactly what Trump tried to do.

Hitler wasn't a lefty. He was a lunatic control freak who used populist movements to gain control. Same as Trump.

 

[TrueTiger]

The only point that is valid here is that the extreme right and the extreme left look very similar. It's fascinating to me because these extremists appear to one hand argue for a smaller government and individual rights but in practice they support Trump who clearly wants a bigger more autocratic government.

Hitler was the same. He got into power via voting but then perverted the system to stay in power. This is exactly what Trump tried to do.

Hitler wasn't a lefty. He was a lunatic control freak who used populist movements to gain control. Same as Trump.

Trump wants smaller govt Earl...look up NESARA law that he and the military are implementing in the background...
National Economic Security and Reformation Act...

 

[Magpie_Magic]

W

Holy smoke batman.

So Trump did more for people because he created a strong economy and promoted tolerance and self respect.

Do you mean in the way he has bought the Republican party together.

Trump the new Dalai Lamai.

Ridiculous post.

And as for cancel culture I am sure you have advocated on this forum "cancelling " certain views on different topics. Someone else may find one of your posts proving my point so it's rather strange to pretend cancel culture does not exist.