Referendum 2023

[Magpie_Magic]

We have/are wasting billions of dollars on things
like Robodebt, Jobkeeper & nuclear submarines
In the last few years. None of these things have
kept you or anyone from getting your first home.
Cost of living crisis has nothing to do with the
voice — it's due to corporate greed, tax breaks,
negative gearing, lack of wage increases,
so on and so forth. Not saying Albo has the
answers by any stretch, but the last decade
hasn't been very kind to the battlers if that's who
you're waving your flag for. Sad state of affairs.

Add to that way way too much money was given out during the pandemic often to people doing nothing or little to the point where houses rose 30% even though one had to buy on line and couldn't view while others lost everything or the opportunity to borrow because their business was shut down or they had jobkeeper stamped on their payslips so precluding them from access to finance.

The amount of money printing was horrendous as is the debt

This is the total source inflation recently.

And in the meantime they have gone back to immigrating 1.3 million people in 3 years and 1 in 10 people in the country are visa holders contributing to pushing up houses and rentals and pushing down wages.

But if one prints money for little output it equals inflation.

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

Good post.
One thing I’ll dispute though is your certainty that “the false claim being made by the 'no' campaign that the Voice will necessarily lead to reparations and other payments” is true.
None of us know this. All we have to go off is YES Campaign scoffing at the notion on one side and the NO Campaign pointing at the Uluṟu Statement containing passages directly referencing and calling for it on the other.

I replied earlier to another poster about this question. I think we were typing simultaneously.

I've been following your posts with interest.

 

[Kaito]

Add to that way way too much money was given out during the pandemic often to people doing nothing or little to the point where houses rose 30% even though one had to buy on line and couldn't view while others lost everything or the opportunity to borrow because their business was shut down or they had jobkeeper stamped on their payslips so precluding them from access to finance.

The amount of money printing was horrendous as is the debt

This is the total source inflation recently.

And in the meantime they have gone back to immigrating 1.3 million people in 3 years and 1 in 10 people in the country are visa holders contributing to pushing up houses and rentals and pushing down wages.

But if one prints money for little output it equals inflation.

Absolutely MM. Couldn't agree more with your
assertions. We've been on a death spiral it seems.
1/10 people are visa holders is a crazy stat
too — skilled migrants? we're outsourcing Labor.
Need to close hiring loopholes. Job stability
is a big issue. Seems we've already sold our souls!

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

Add to that way way too much money was given out during the pandemic often to people doing nothing or little to the point where houses rose 30% even though one had to buy on line and couldn't view while others lost everything or the opportunity to borrow because their business was shut down or they had jobkeeper stamped on their payslips so precluding them from access to finance.

The amount of money printing was horrendous as is the debt

This is the total source inflation recently.

And in the meantime they have gone back to immigrating 1.3 million people in 3 years and 1 in 10 people in the country are visa holders contributing to pushing up houses and rentals and pushing down wages.

But if one prints money for little output it equals inflation.

There are very specific processes in the mechanics of Capitalism that require it to continually grow. That's why there is a constant focus on the critical importance of economic growth figures. Hence immigration continues as you describe, more people means greater growth.

I posted earlier that Colonialism is a process of Capitalism. Colonialism being a source of growth.


(If I get time later I will detail the exact reasons - mechanics - why growth is essential for capitalism not to collapse.)

 

[shiretiger]

Marcia Langton winning friends and influencing people

‘Racist or just stupid’: Professor Marcia Langton’s attack on opponents of Indigenous Voice to Parliament

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

You can tell when times are tough, when people are shoplifting food.
Coles employees will start wearing body cameras and GM Sophie Wong says it’s a necessity due to the physical and verbal abuse which has dramatically increased due to cost of living pressures.
Shoplifting has increased dramatically, with main items being top cuts of meat, baby formula and beauty products.

Those 3 categories mentioned are the ones most easily converted to cash. Top cuts of meat are sold to restaurants, the other two sold to corner stores, markets etc.

 

[watersider]

I usually like to stay out of topics like these but wanted to give my 2 cents. As a young bloke this referendum feels like a slap in the face to all of us worrying about how the future looks... at this rate we'll never be able to afford to buy a house, some people I know have had to move back in with their parents because the rental market is crazy, the cost of living is shooting up like a rocket but the minimum wage is hardly increasing & yet all I see over the news is our PM wearing a vote yes shirt. If he really cared that much about Aboriginals why doesn't he head over to NT & try & actually do something over there with all the problems they got going on?

You say you're voting no you get accused of being a racist & not caring about our first nation people which is a total load of BS. I understand that what happened to the Aboriginal people was sad, heart breaking, unfair & completely undeserved but this happened over 100 years ago & what can anyone do about it today? Is that a racist thing to say or is that the truth? There are plenty of programmes/initiatives that our first nations people receive as many people here have noted out.

It feels like the world has moved towards a landscape of catering to minorities & no one is really tackling any issues to help EVERYONE which is causing more & more division/unrest amongst the population. Referendums like the SSM bill you can get behind because it's just handing people basic human rights but this Referendum just seems like a big what if & we've hardly heard what this Referendum is set out to achieve just our PM walking around Redfern in a vote yes shirt.

Yeah, the future sucks in cities for young people. I'm not sure what we do with that, but it is absolutely tarnishing our sense of community and concern for each other.

You're not racist for voting no, ignore people who tell you that and please don't hold it against the issue itself.

To go against what you say a little, I don't think the government can do much in current financial strain, giving people support could impact already high inflation. It's just a hard and problematic time economically. I'd put most of that on the huge stimulus paid to corporations and low interest rates over the last few years which has deepened the divide between rich and poor. It sucks.

But I also don't think government should stop because people are struggling financially. This is not a massive new financial burden we're undertaking. Just looking at some of the money paid to corrupt consultancy groups has me really troubled about the processes of government. Funding a representative voice for Indigenous people does not seem wasteful to me.

There are many Indigenous people alive today who are victims of the stolen generation. This has also had an impact on their children and grandchildren. I don't think the issues are as distant as over 100 years ago, but I do think what happened in the past continues to have an impact today. That's not to say that people shouldn't be accountable, but I also don't think it's fair to ignore injustices and lingering consequences of that on our society.

 

[watersider]

What are you talking about? "Sovereign citizens loading guns and shooting up cops..."?
Firstly, its an oxymoron to suggest Citizens can't be sovereign. By definition its not possible - yet more B.S. coming from media and politicians. And I'm not sure why you brought up the shooting in Qld. That has nothing to do with any point I was making - not that I can see, anyway.
And I could care less about Lidia Thorpe or what she stands for. So don't try and tell me what I want.
This is a politically initiated referendum which in itself is unconstitutional.
We already have 3278 Aboriginal corporations
243 Native title bodies
48 land councils
35 regional councils
122 Aboriginal agencies
3 advisory bodies
145 health organisations
11 indigenous federal MPs
$33 billion annually in funding
If the indigenous folk who need the help aren't getting it, then serious questions should be asked of the existing organisations tasked with providing it. Enshrining yet another level of bureaucracy over the top of what is already there is madness.

Thanks for finding that list. That's huge.

None of those boards are a central representative voice to parliament like this proposal puts forward. I hope a voice to parliament might lead to better solutions which could potentially reduce the need for other advisory bodies and bureaucracy.

It actually makes sense that so many different boards (mainly appointed bureaucrats) all over the place in all different directions are leading to lots of waste and not much improvement in the conditions of Indigenous people.

We should try listening to them and see how that goes. What we are doing isn't working. That also makes the Voice more accountable.

 

[watersider]

What if The Voice is taken over by just a few powerful tribal groups who help themselves and neglect others, as happened with ATSIC? However, since ATSIC was not in the Constitution, a body that had clearly become corrupt was able to be disbanded.

What happens if the Voice committee becomes corrupt? It can never be scrapped for poor performance, so the The Voice is unaccountable. Hagipantelis and Pascoe have shown us what happens when there no formal accountability.

If there's corruption parliament would have power to sack people and reconfigure the voice. The voice is an advisory body to parliament and "Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures". Parliament has power over it, control over it.

Like all organisations and governments and bureaucracies, I don't think the voice will be above corruption. But it will just have to be dealt with when it happens. I still think the aspiration is right and will produce better outcomes for Indigenous people. But that's a hope not a certainty. I just believe at least that we shouldn't be so tied to the way we're doing things now.

 

[Tucker]

Marcia Langton winning friends and influencing people

‘Racist or just stupid’: Professor Marcia Langton’s attack on opponents of Indigenous Voice to Parliament

Marcia is a very accomplished individual.
She also talks a lot of shit.

 

[Tucker]

Thanks for finding that list. That's huge.

None of those boards are a central representative voice to parliament like this proposal puts forward. I hope a voice to parliament might lead to better solutions which could potentially reduce the need for other advisory bodies and bureaucracy.

They have said the Voice will not replace any of these organisations and will run parallel to them

It actually makes sense that so many different boards (mainly appointed bureaucrats) all over the place in all different directions are leading to lots of waste and not much improvement in the conditions of Indigenous people.

It’s been a bug bear for communities for decades

We should try listening to them and see how that goes. What we are doing isn't working. That also makes the Voice more accountable.

Possibly. If only we knew how it would work.
The fact we don’t get to find out till possibly years after this referendum is the worry.

 

[watersider]

They have said the Voice will not replace any of these organisations and will run parallel to them

It’s been a bug bear for communities for decades

Possibly. If only we knew how it would work.
The fact we don’t get to find out till possibly years after this referendum is the worry.

I didn't mean the voice would immediately replace them. But if the voice is effective there would ultimately be less need for all those services etc. That's further down the track obviously. I just think this is different from those other bodies, and I don't think our current system is improving, even as it grows ever larger. Try something else.

Yeah, it could be a long process before parliament implements the voice. I don't see a way around it. I'm hopeful it would be worth the time and effort taken.

 

[Tucker]

I didn't mean the voice would immediately replace them. But if the voice is effective there would ultimately be less need for all those services etc. That's further down the track obviously. I just think this is different from those other bodies, and I don't think our current system is improving, even as it grows ever larger. Try something else.

Yeah, it could be a long process before parliament implements the voice. I don't see a way around it. I'm hopeful it would be worth the time and effort taken.

Yes in a perfect world, reducing all these agencies and bodies would be ideal. You could imagine the infighting amongst them as they divvy up the yearly budget.

 

[bptiger 0]

The Voice is a non-binding advisory body, the Government in power will decide if recommendations are taken up or not. So even if reparations were proposed, they would not likely be paid, and if they were, it would be by a democratically elected government.

That’s a lie , they will take it to the high court as they do with everything they don’t agree with and the high court has been on there side in must cases , last couple the nuclear site in south aust , high court went there way , gas drilling 500 kilometres north of Darwin also went there way through the high court . Maybe might be a good idea to read what ur so called activists are really saying rather than pedalling albos lies

 

[Tim Sheens]

It's honestly scary how much people I know who are genuinely afraid of what the future looks like which is my whole issue with this Referendum. I do believe Aboriginal rights are important but this is a time where the world as a whole is moving towards a rapid cost of living crisis & this is quite obviously the more important issue.

The two are separate issues.

Climate change, tax and superannuation advantages, franking credits, lack of regulation for Airbnb etcetera, along with many more, are all long standing issues, and profiteering on the ongoing crisis is now adding to it. The trouble is that so many of very same people of my age and above benefiting from the above, are also happy with the shares bonus gained from record company and bank profits.

I have and do benefit from them as well, but voted for those against them in 2019, just as I have each time I visited the ballot box this century. Because of the choice others made then, many based solely on greed, and others through the fear campaign, nothing changed. So as long as they still live and the Murdochs of the world control the narrative, it will continue.

Vote appropriately for a better future for those affected on each, and for those that don't know regarding the Voice, definitely don't vote no based on ignorance, which along with many falsehoods, is exactly what that side is peddling.

 

[Lauren]

I didn't mean the voice would immediately replace them. But if the voice is effective there would ultimately be less need for all those services etc. That's further down the track obviously. I just think this is different from those other bodies, and I don't think our current system is improving, even as it grows ever larger. Try something else.

Yeah, it could be a long process before parliament implements the voice. I don't see a way around it. I'm hopeful it would be worth the time and effort taken.

I came across one of ATSIC's regional plans and noticed how various agencies, including TAFE and NSW Health, were collaborating to develop strategies and initiatives aimed at addressing areas of disadvantage. Apart from details about Employment Programs and Housing & Infrastructure, there were expenditure reports on other programs such as Sport & Recreation, Vocational Education, and Job Training Courses. After conducting some Google searches to identify the districts where these programs were implemented, I found tangible evidence of favourable outcomes.

In addition to promoting sporting opportunities and establishing Youth Centers, the initiative also included well-planned and noteworthy success projects like nurseries, daycare centers, art galleries, building companies, and service stations. Moreover, several participants from the Community Development Employment Program (CDEP) were able to pursue nursing, business, and community service diplomas and degrees. Overall, this comprehensive planning approach appeared to yield highly positive results.

This model offers valuable insights into community development. Improving upon this previous model can serve as a robust foundation for empowering various communities. By customising strategies to their specific requirements, these communities can leverage the knowledge and support of different agencies and organisations to address their unique challenges effectively. By doing so, they can aim to outline a similar roadmap for strength and sustainable success.

 

[Tucker]

The two are separate issues.

Climate change, tax and superannuation advantages, franking credits, lack of regulation for Airbnb etcetera, along with many more, are all long standing issues, and profiteering on the ongoing crisis is now adding to it. The trouble is that so many of very same people of my age and above benefiting from the above, are also happy with the shares bonus gained from record company and bank profits.

I have and do benefit from them as well, but voted for those against them in 2019, just as I have each time I visited the ballot box this century. Because of the choice others made then, many based solely on greed, and others through the fear campaign, nothing changed. So as long as they still live and the Murdochs of the world control the narrative, it will continue.

Vote appropriately for a better future for those affected on each, and for those that don't know regarding the Voice, definitely don't vote no based on ignorance, which along with many falsehoods, is exactly what that side is peddling.

Good content bar the last paragraph.
State your case, don’t rip the other side down.

 

[Enmore_Tiger]

That’s a lie , they will take it to the high court as they do with everything they don’t agree with and the high court has been on there side in must cases , last couple the nuclear site in south aust , high court went there way , gas drilling 500 kilometres north of Darwin also went there way through the high court . Maybe might be a good idea to read what ur so called activists are really saying rather than pedalling albos lies

Do you have any links to advice from a Constitutional Lawyer showing that is the case?

Ok think I've seen such advice saying the opposite. I'm not sure where, can another poster help with that.

(Possibly instead of saying that's a 'lie', implying dishonesty. Maybe you could say 'thats not correct' or you 'believe it's not true'.)

 

[bptiger 0]

Do you have any links to advice from a Constitutional Lawyer showing that is the case?

Ok think I've seen such advice saying the opposite. I'm not sure where, can another poster help with that.

(Possibly instead of saying that's a 'lie', implying dishonesty. Maybe you could say 'thats not correct' or you 'believe it's not true'.)

I lie is a lie , and ur constitutional lawyers are divided, so if many can’t give a clear yes or no then we should vote on the causes side , because once it in we are all stuffed

 

[Telltails]

Still undecided. A big concern if it doesn't get through is that it will cause more division than currently exists - and the outcome of that remains to be seen. Attempts by governments to alleviate the struggles faced by Aboriginal/Torres Strait Islanders dont appear to be overly successful to date especially for those in remote areas.Can understand that the perspective from city folk may differ vastly to communities who reside with and near areas where they see first hand the challenges.