Referendum 2023

[Mistymuzzle]

This is fascinating. Warren Mundine is stating vote no but and he might become a sitting liberal politician at some point.

His viewpoints on this issue are little bit funny though. He wants a treaty but not the voice. It just sounds a bit off.

is there a rule book or a manual on how people should think Earl. Maybe you could send Warren a link so he can align all of his opinions on how you think they should be?

Is it as fascinating that Linda Burney is voting Yes and is a sitting Labor politician?

 

[earl]

You might love facts and data Earl but you have zero clue how to use them. Indigenous people make up a third of the Australian prison population. Non indigenous people die in custody at a higher rate proportionally to indigenous people.

Australia: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population summary

www.abs.gov.au

In Australia, 812,000 people identified as Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander in the 2021 Census of Population and Housing. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people represented 3.2% of the population. This was up from 2.8% in 2016, and 2.5% in 2011.

Deaths in custody in Australia 2021–22 Deaths in custody in Australia

The National Deaths in Custody Program has monitored the extent and nature of deaths occurring in prison, police custody and youth detention in Australia since 1980. The Australian Institute of Criminology has coordinated the program since its establishment in 1992, the result of a...

www.aic.gov.au

In 2021–22, there were 106 deaths in custody: 84 in prison custody and 22 in police custody or custody-related operations. In total, there were 24 Indigenous deaths and 81 non-Indigenous deaths in custody and one death of a person whose Indigenous status was unknown.

This shows 20% of deaths in custody were Indigenous which is 10 times the national average.

Can you please provide references of your data or alternatively admit that you made it up. If you don't provide references you've made it up.

Let's try and keep our feelings out of it unless you are clearly articulating it's your feelings.

 

[Spartan117]

Thomas Mayo
Lydia Thorpe
Megan Davis and Marcia Langton

These are a few of the activists driving the agenda that will not help the people that need it most.

This is a Money grab.

We are all Australian, last time I checked

 

[TillLindemann]

I understand this upsets some people but it's not ridiculous at all. At some point it's about trying to improve the situation.

We need as a society to stop the black deaths in custody. If this stops one person getting locked up who then commits suicide in jail it's worth it.

Also not many people go to jail for something so trivial. It shows how poorly they've adapted to our society. This could even be considered Institutional racism.

I can't think of a more perfect way to stoke racism than by giving people different sentences for the same crime, based solely on their race.

 

[TillLindemann]

They are Indigenous. There is no reason for any other disadvantaged groups to have a Voice.

So it's most definitely not about achieving concrete outcomes then, it's just about telling a particular group they're special. That's fine, but can we at least stop pretending it's about 'closing the gap' then?

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Australia: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population summary

www.abs.gov.au

Deaths in custody in Australia 2021–22 Deaths in custody in Australia

The National Deaths in Custody Program has monitored the extent and nature of deaths occurring in prison, police custody and youth detention in Australia since 1980. The Australian Institute of Criminology has coordinated the program since its establishment in 1992, the result of a...

www.aic.gov.au

This shows 20% of deaths in custody were Indigenous which is 10 times the national average.

Can you please provide references of your data or alternatively admit that you made it up. If you don't provide references you've made it up.

Let's try and keep our feelings out of it unless you are clearly articulating it's your feelings.

Earl you have an uncanny ability to project arrogance and ignorance in equal parts. Its quite breathtaking. You love data and facts, just dont understand them.

As you said 20% of deaths in custody were indigenous, where as 32% of the prison population is indigenous.

Prisoners in Australia, 2022

Contains annual national information on prisoners in custody at 30 June, including demographic information, imprisonment rates, most serious offence.

www.abs.gov.au

 

[shiretiger]

I'm loving the irony of you interpreting my statement that "I dont think that people who live in the Shire are particularly racist." establishes that "all inhabitants of the Shire are nothing but racist, but you still dont understand what it means when you posted ""I don't feel like Aboriginal and Torre Strait Islander people are particularly prone to corruption."

Took a few pages Im glad my post finally served its purpose.

You didn't establish anything Champ.

The people of The Shire were called out here

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I understand this upsets some people but it's not ridiculous at all. At some point it's about trying to improve the situation.

We need as a society to stop the black deaths in custody. If this stops one person getting locked up who then commits suicide in jail it's worth it.

Also not many people go to jail for something so trivial. It shows how poorly they've adapted to our society. This could even be considered Institutional racism.

Earl.....arent you the one who loves facts and data? How many went to jail (gaol) for "something so trivial"? how many? What crimes are trivial?

Prisoners in Australia, 2022

Contains annual national information on prisoners in custody at 30 June, including demographic information, imprisonment rates, most serious offence.

www.abs.gov.au

In 2022 there was 12902 indigenous people in gaol. 60% of them (7700) are in there for acts intended to cause injury, sexual assault, or unlawful entry with intent. How many of them should be let out.

It is a disgrace and a national issue that indigenous are so over represented in prison but this child like fairy tale that its because of some racist agenda that blakfullas are being locked up for "trivial" incidents is frankly disgusting and completely distracts from the real reasons for this inbalance.

People always look for the easy fix and the "racist cop" locking up cheeky blakfullas is nice to cling to because its a lot easier to solve than low education completion rates, high levels of substance abuse and domestic violence.

These issues need to be addressed and addressed properly. The concept of the Voice, done properly could help but I see no reason why it should be enshrined in the Constitution and I see no reason which its inclusion would have any impact on the real issues in remote, rural and regional areas for indigenous people. This debate is typical of the issue and IMO the reason we are no closer to "closing the gap" and decades away from real reconciliation. Inner city liberals and academics want to talk about post colonialism whilst the real solutions are going to be much uglier and Im not sure people really want to get their hands dirty in the right ways.

Real solutions are going to include job creation in rural/regional areas, getting indigenous kids into school and getting them to stay there. Substance abuse and domestic violence in indigenous communities. I wonder if the Voice will get its hands dirty with these issues or concentrate on the much more sanitary philosophic issues of colonialism.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

You didn't establish anything Champ.

The people of The Shire were called out here

ah I see, self reporting.

i should have known better than you picking up nuance.

 

[earl]

is there a rule book or a manual on how people should think Earl. Maybe you could send Warren a link so he can align all of his opinions on how you think they should be?

Did I say that ?

Is it as fascinating that Linda Burney is voting Yes and is a sitting Labor politician?

It's completely different.

 

[earl]

I can't think of a more perfect way to stoke racism than by giving people different sentences for the same crime, based solely on their race.

This comes back to the "all lives matter" argument which I've previously posted about and in my opinion it is a terrible argument.

 

[earl]

Earl.....arent you the one who loves facts and data? How many went to jail (gaol) for "something so trivial"? how many? What crimes are trivial?

I was making a point about how the system works against Indigenous people at times.

I notice you still haven't backed up your point where you made up data. That is intellectually dishonest and it proves you aren't discussing the issue in good faith.

I'm not going to engage with you anymore.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

Did I say that ?

yes you did, you said his opinions were "a bit off". They are not to him, they are his opinions.

It's completely different.

Its fascinating that a no advocate might become a Liberal politician, but completely different if a yes advocate is a current Labor politician. Righto Earl. At least you put it out there.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I was making a point about how the system works against Indigenous people at times.

No you were making up a point about how the system works against Indigenous people, completely bereft of facts, based only only the vibe you have in your head. I have asked you how you make the assertion that indigenous people are incarcerated for "trivial" offences when the actual facts and data dont back that up.

Ill even do the hard work for you....here is the data

Stock-Flow Offence profile for ATSI prisoners (ex traffic)	Flow	Stock
01 Homicide and related offences	0%	6%
02 Acts intended to cause injury	38%	31%
03 Sexual assault and related offences	2%	8%
04 Dangerous or negligent acts endangering persons	1%	4%
05 Abduction, harassment etc	1%	1%
06 Robbery, extortion and related offences	3%	10%
07 Unlawful entry with intent/burglary, break and enter	14%	17%
08 Theft and related offences	10%	3%
09 Fraud, deception and related offences	2%	1%
10 Illicit drug offences	4%	2%
11 Weapons and explosives offences	1%	0%
12 Property damage and environmental pollution	4%	1%
13 Public order offences	4%	1%
15 Offences against justice procedures	17%	13%
16 Miscellaneous offences	0%	0%

Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics, Criminal Courts, Australia, 2015–16, Cat No 4513.0 (2017) table 51; Australian Bureau of Statistics, Prisoners in Australia, 2016, Cat No 4517.0 (2016) table 10.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I notice you still haven't backed up your point where you made up data. That is intellectually dishonest and it proves you aren't discussing the issue in good faith.

You are hilarious Earl. I "backed up my point" by posting ABS stats a couple of posts above (post 1046) which complete proves the correct point that I and others have made that aboriginal deaths in custody are proportionally less than non indigenous, but you have either ignored it or cant read. Speaking of intellectually dishonest and bad faith....pot =>kettle.

I'm not going to engage with you anymore.

you have proven yourself incapable. Have a rest.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Add me to that list. Im also incapable. I've just based my opinions on the past. Really. Hope it all works out fellow forumers I have learnt one thing. Not just this thread - you guys are good. All of you. Hope it all works out. Really.

 

[Betterdays22]

You are hilarious Earl. I "backed up my point" by posting ABS stats a couple of posts above (post 1046) which complete proves the correct point that I and others have made that aboriginal deaths in custody are proportionally less than non indigenous, but you have either ignored it or cant read. Speaking of intellectually dishonest and bad faith....pot =>kettle.



you have proven yourself incapable. Have a rest.

I find the whole Indigenous deaths in custody focus as a strange one for the reasons you outlined. Indigenous people are overrepresented in those statistics because they are are so disproportionately incarcerated when compared to non-indigenous Australians. In my opinion the focus should be on the social determinants that are leading to that over-representation, rather than the actual deaths themselves.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

I find the whole Indigenous deaths in custody focus as a strange one for the reasons you outlined. Indigenous people are overrepresented in those statistics because they are are so disproportionately incarcerated when compared to non-indigenous Australians. In my opinion the focus should be on the social determinants that are leading to that over-representation, rather than the actual deaths themselves.

Not just them. But us also.

 

[Mistymuzzle]

I find the whole Indigenous deaths in custody focus as a strange one for the reasons you outlined. Indigenous people are overrepresented in those statistics because they are are so disproportionately incarcerated when compared to non-indigenous Australians. In my opinion the focus should be on the social determinants that are leading to that over-representation, rather than the actual deaths themselves.

100%.

Indigenous people are massively overrepresented in prison and that is a massive national disgrace and problem, but it not because they are not committing crimes and its not for committing "trivial" crimes. The effort needs to be on the economic, social and cultural reasons that they over represent as offenders. Will the Voice address this? It might and there would be benefits to distilling indigenous representation....but to get the discussion back to topic, I am firmly of the opinion that it shouldn't be enshrined in the Constitution.

 

[Betterdays22]

Not just them. But us also.

Fair point. The determinants are the same for all. I only commented in the context of discussions about the referendum, and the fact these determinants disproportionately affect Aboriginal people.