Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[avocadoontoast]

Tamou has been an absolute bust of a signing.

I don't think he has been that bad. He wasn't signed as a marquee player. The problem is that we made him captain. If he was just a role player he'd be fine. Is Twal much better than Tamou ? I reckon Twal is better but it's pretty close.

I think he's been pretty terrible. On field he doesn't add much and hasn't shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he's probably our worst middle.

I'm not a huge Twal fan but he's eons better than Tamou imo. Twal can play big minutes and is an excellent defender. Tamou is an arm grabber who gets gassed really quickly.

 

[avocadoontoast]

What I really find depressing about this push for Flano as coach with WT is the way in which WT is perceived as an option of last resort. Why is there no push to see him at another club?

I think realistically it's because the other teams that are struggling have relatively new coaches. Madge is on year 3, he'd be the most likely to be shafted.

I'd rather go for a rookie coach with veteran assistant coaches rather than Flanagan, although I believe he's a very good coach (but very bad person).

 

[earl]

I think he’s been pretty terrible. On field he doesn’t add much and hasn’t shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he’s probably our worst middle.

I think he is up there with our worst middles as well. I just think he is a role player like Twal. They can do a job.

When Madge was playing Tamou and Twal starting we just got done. They are both worker props.

We aren't paying him top dollar though. The captaincy decision was a poor one.

 

[twentyforty]

I think if we looked hard enough we would find a few leaders in the 17.

That's counter-intuitive though isn't it?

If there are leaders in the squad they would've demonstrated it by now without having to go searching for them.

Have only really seen hints of it from AD and Luciano.

I remain completely baffled by the appointment of Tamou as captain, regardless of the minutes he plays (all 27 of them).

It’s more counter intuitive to create the expectation in the minds of the players that there are no leaders.

At this stage with the exception of AD there is no-one who exhibits leadership in the team. Tamou has been an absolute bust of a signing.

That’s the question isn’t it..how does Madge create 17 leaders from the team he has?
He could start by listing the qualities of a leader and rewarding those players who display them. Contrary to popular opinion, leaders aren’t born, they are a product of desire and circumstance.

 

[twentyforty]

I think he’s been pretty terrible. On field he doesn’t add much and hasn’t shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he’s probably our worst middle.

I think he is up there with our worst middles as well. I just think he is a role player like Twal. They can do a job.

When Madge was playing Tamou and Twal starting we just got done. They are both worker props.

We aren't paying him top dollar though. The captaincy decision was a poor one.

Been saying for a year, Brooks should be our captain.

 

[Demps]

I think he’s been pretty terrible. On field he doesn’t add much and hasn’t shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he’s probably our worst middle.

I think he is up there with our worst middles as well. I just think he is a role player like Twal. They can do a job.

When Madge was playing Tamou and Twal starting we just got done. They are both worker props.

We aren't paying him top dollar though. The captaincy decision was a poor one.


Been saying for a year, Brooks should be our captain.

?

 

[izotope]

I think he’s been pretty terrible. On field he doesn’t add much and hasn’t shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he’s probably our worst middle.

I think he is up there with our worst middles as well. I just think he is a role player like Twal. They can do a job.

When Madge was playing Tamou and Twal starting we just got done. They are both worker props.

We aren't paying him top dollar though. The captaincy decision was a poor one.


Been saying for a year, Brooks should be our captain.

Went well last time

 

[avocadoontoast]

I think he’s been pretty terrible. On field he doesn’t add much and hasn’t shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he’s probably our worst middle.

I think he is up there with our worst middles as well. I just think he is a role player like Twal. They can do a job.

When Madge was playing Tamou and Twal starting we just got done. They are both worker props.

We aren't paying him top dollar though. The captaincy decision was a poor one.


Been saying for a year, Brooks should be our captain.

I think that would be a disaster for him and the club.

 

[AdelaideTiger]

Watch the dressingroom before/halftime/after the game, he’s lost them. Just yelling and swearing at them over and over again gets old quick!
I know there is not much on offer but I would take the drug cheat any day over this hoax. Our season is done and he still picks Chee Kim who won’t be here next year, instead of giving Ogden or Cini a go at centre, he’s got no idea.
We are just wasting more years with him there. My problem with Flanagan is how would he work with sheens? They don’t seem like they would mix.

Disappointing to see so many downvotes on this post.

Did everyone hear Blocker and Elias on 360 last night? A must watch.

Cliffs:

- Benny said he'd talk to his team mates and tell them weakness he saw on field, leadership role... did a lot of the chatting in the sheds

- Blocker said he wouldn't even listen to the coach in the sheds, he'd be doing his own thing and listen to his team mates.

- Blocker said none of the good coaches he had ever had to swear, yell and carry on like that. Message was simple.

- Blocker mentioned again, which he has stated a few times before that he believes a coach only has 1 or 2 real blow ups a year in them.
.
- Both said which Pk agreed with NO LEADERS in this group. Supposed to be a player rallying in the troops in the sheds, on the field.... without the exception of AD, there is NO ONE. Mentioned Tamou talks it up in the media then plays 5 minutes a half. Its a clear weakness we lack.

Adam Reynolds would've been great.
Nicho Hynes.

Something we have really lacked since Farah left.


All very good points from Benny and Blocker, it’s obvious they were barred from the joint for having too much logic lol.

I can understand why Benny is kept at arms length, but do you know why Blocker hasn't been more involved with the club from a coaching perspective?
I know the general consensus on the bloke is he's a bit thick, but the man knows league and I actually think he would be a pretty good mentor for some of the young blokes coming through, particularly our front rowers

 

[pawsandclaws1]

What I really find depressing about this push for Flano as coach with WT is the way in which WT is perceived as an option of last resort. Why is there no push to see him at another club?

I've been pushing for John Morris, for a number of reasons. Firstly, he achieved good results with the Sharks at a difficult period in that club's history (there have been a few). I refer specifically to the loss of Gallen. Morris also was integral in the Sharks' highly successful pathways initiative. Morris is also an educated man which I believe is important insofar as communication with players and people management is concerned. Finally, I view him as having been influenced by Tim Sheens. An ongoing relationship between the two is crucial for success at WTs.

 

[Demps]

What I really find depressing about this push for Flano as coach with WT is the way in which WT is perceived as an option of last resort. Why is there no push to see him at another club?

I've been pushing for John Morris, for a number of reasons. Firstly, he achieved good results with the Sharks at a difficult period in that club's history (there have been a few). I refer specifically to the loss of Gallen. Morris also was integral in the Sharks' highly successful pathways initiative. Morris is also an educated man which I believe is important insofar as communication with players and people management is concerned. Finally, I view him as having been influenced by Tim Sheens. An ongoing relationship between the two is crucial for success at WTs.

A lot to like about Johnny Boy.

 

[earl]

I think he’s been pretty terrible. On field he doesn’t add much and hasn’t shown any leadership qualities at all other than the weekly fluff piece. I think he’s probably our worst middle.

I think he is up there with our worst middles as well. I just think he is a role player like Twal. They can do a job.

When Madge was playing Tamou and Twal starting we just got done. They are both worker props.

We aren't paying him top dollar though. The captaincy decision was a poor one.


Been saying for a year, Brooks should be our captain.

I think that would be a disaster for him and the club.

I don't know if he needs any more pressure on him.

 

[851]

Yesterday the Tigers looked lost in attack and shakey in defense but what’s new?

Madge is done.

Right now I would take Flanagan as coach only because when he coached Cronulla he had them defend very well. I don’t care about peptides, that’s history. I want a coach that can get the team to defend.

Some will say that he had a team of old heads, players that had loads of experience. Well he put them there over a number of years, he built that team. No-one can argue that they weren’t a good defensive unit.

I want a coach who can get a team to defend well. That’s all, is that too hard?

From your keyboard , but every word could have been from my own… Flanagan coaches strong, committed football teams that can get down and dirty and win however it needs to be done… players perform for him, he knows how to build a “team” out of players that compliment each other and his teams play what’s in front of them..the Cronulla grand final team took down Melbourne in their prime, even set a record for consecutive wins and they were good to watch. Tough and entertaining, but most importantly they used to fight to win, they were competitors, and in my estimation they were representative of the coaches own personality… Flanagan is smart and his a hard head, we need that at this club, he bought an identity to that Cronulla club and we need that desperately at the West’s tigers… he would be perfect, the right man at the exact right time….. cmon Justin “guns” Pascoe, bring Shane to Tiger Town!

He hasn't achieved anything without cheating.

You may see it that way. Many other people do not….

Im with cochise.....we have morals...

Yet look at the players Madge has brought to the club or tried to attract, hardly clean skins how does that sit with your morals?

Pretty good because none of them tried to inject illegal substances into players to gain an unfair advantage...

I suppose your morals a far different to mine...Im old school ....better your self fairly and treat competition they way you want to be treated yourself...

sorry if this doesnt suit your moral compass....

I don’t support anyone using illegal substances but he served his punishment which is no different to the players here that have also paid their dues so it is fair game.

Tell me then, you forgive Melbourne Storm for rorting the cap during those premiership seasons? Tim Simona is forgiven too?

Personally I think it's one thing to have off-field indiscretions that you can legitimately do your time for. Rusty Packer went to jail, so did Manu Ma'u... that's how society deals with and attempts to reform criminal acts.

But in-game cheats, for me, that's something entirely different. Drug cheats too. How can you take anyone seriously for the rest of their career if they are a proven drug cheat? How can you assure yourself they won't do that again, won't cheat, aren't using performance enhancers ever again? Tainted for life I'm afraid.

Fair point,however I am not Jesus, I don’t need to forgive anyone, I have never said I condone any illegal activity, nor do I need to burden myself with anything I can’t control, all I am saying is it is hypocritical to crucify Flannogan but support someone with a past like Roberts.

No its not hypocritical, Roberts has his own demons he is dealing with, issues he is very open and honest about. His actions largely effect him. Flanagan on the other hand was involved in a systematic program of doping players in his care with substances that the players were unaware of the contents. His actions primarily effected the players he was supposed to guide and assist and trusted him to do the right thing by them. It is a completely different situations.

I'll make this clear, I support Roberts and think that Flanagan is a low life of the highest order. In my opinion he should have faced criminal charges and should be banned from any involvement in the game for life. I wouldn't even allow him to commentate.


Completely agree with this,Flanagan is the coach i would never want involved in any capacity at my club.Even the bag of manure JT would be preferable and he is the worst coach i have seen coaching the Tigers in over 50 years.

Flano applied for the CC job and lost out to snoops, so why would the club hire him for the top job?

You don't think Madge played a big part in him not getting the job, Madge went for Snoopy and Millard, 2 blokes who are no threat to his job, Flanno on the other hand would have been a huge threat

 

[Tiger5150]

Watch the dressingroom before/halftime/after the game, he’s lost them. Just yelling and swearing at them over and over again gets old quick!
I know there is not much on offer but I would take the drug cheat any day over this hoax. Our season is done and he still picks Chee Kim who won’t be here next year, instead of giving Ogden or Cini a go at centre, he’s got no idea.
We are just wasting more years with him there. My problem with Flanagan is how would he work with sheens? They don’t seem like they would mix.

Disappointing to see so many downvotes on this post.

Did everyone hear Blocker and Elias on 360 last night? A must watch.

Cliffs:

- Benny said he'd talk to his team mates and tell them weakness he saw on field, leadership role... did a lot of the chatting in the sheds

- Blocker said he wouldn't even listen to the coach in the sheds, he'd be doing his own thing and listen to his team mates.

- Blocker said none of the good coaches he had ever had to swear, yell and carry on like that. Message was simple.

- Blocker mentioned again, which he has stated a few times before that he believes a coach only has 1 or 2 real blow ups a year in them.
.
- Both said which Pk agreed with NO LEADERS in this group. Supposed to be a player rallying in the troops in the sheds, on the field.... without the exception of AD, there is NO ONE. Mentioned Tamou talks it up in the media then plays 5 minutes a half. Its a clear weakness we lack.

Adam Reynolds would've been great.
Nicho Hynes.

Something we have really lacked since Farah left.


All very good points from Benny and Blocker, it’s obvious they were barred from the joint for having too much logic lol.

I can understand why Benny is kept at arms length, but do you know why Blocker hasn't been more involved with the club from a coaching perspective?
I know the general consensus on the bloke is he's a bit thick, but the man knows league and I actually think he would be a pretty good mentor for some of the young blokes coming through, particularly our front rowers

Was lower grade coach here (or Balmain?) many years ago. Inherited a GF team and took them to the spoon in his first year. In the second year, he applied for the NRL assistant coach gig and was overlooked. He got the dirts about it and rubbished us in the media and went to Souffs and took (I think) their U20's to the spoon in his first year. Souffs cut him and he hasnt been let near a coaching position since.

 

[avocadoontoast]

Yesterday the Tigers looked lost in attack and shakey in defense but what’s new?

Madge is done.

Right now I would take Flanagan as coach only because when he coached Cronulla he had them defend very well. I don’t care about peptides, that’s history. I want a coach that can get the team to defend.

Some will say that he had a team of old heads, players that had loads of experience. Well he put them there over a number of years, he built that team. No-one can argue that they weren’t a good defensive unit.

I want a coach who can get a team to defend well. That’s all, is that too hard?

From your keyboard , but every word could have been from my own… Flanagan coaches strong, committed football teams that can get down and dirty and win however it needs to be done… players perform for him, he knows how to build a “team” out of players that compliment each other and his teams play what’s in front of them..the Cronulla grand final team took down Melbourne in their prime, even set a record for consecutive wins and they were good to watch. Tough and entertaining, but most importantly they used to fight to win, they were competitors, and in my estimation they were representative of the coaches own personality… Flanagan is smart and his a hard head, we need that at this club, he bought an identity to that Cronulla club and we need that desperately at the West’s tigers… he would be perfect, the right man at the exact right time….. cmon Justin “guns” Pascoe, bring Shane to Tiger Town!

He hasn't achieved anything without cheating.

You may see it that way. Many other people do not….

Im with cochise.....we have morals...

Yet look at the players Madge has brought to the club or tried to attract, hardly clean skins how does that sit with your morals?

Pretty good because none of them tried to inject illegal substances into players to gain an unfair advantage...

I suppose your morals a far different to mine...Im old school ....better your self fairly and treat competition they way you want to be treated yourself...

sorry if this doesnt suit your moral compass....

I don’t support anyone using illegal substances but he served his punishment which is no different to the players here that have also paid their dues so it is fair game.

Tell me then, you forgive Melbourne Storm for rorting the cap during those premiership seasons? Tim Simona is forgiven too?

Personally I think it's one thing to have off-field indiscretions that you can legitimately do your time for. Rusty Packer went to jail, so did Manu Ma'u... that's how society deals with and attempts to reform criminal acts.

But in-game cheats, for me, that's something entirely different. Drug cheats too. How can you take anyone seriously for the rest of their career if they are a proven drug cheat? How can you assure yourself they won't do that again, won't cheat, aren't using performance enhancers ever again? Tainted for life I'm afraid.

Fair point,however I am not Jesus, I don’t need to forgive anyone, I have never said I condone any illegal activity, nor do I need to burden myself with anything I can’t control, all I am saying is it is hypocritical to crucify Flannogan but support someone with a past like Roberts.

No its not hypocritical, Roberts has his own demons he is dealing with, issues he is very open and honest about. His actions largely effect him. Flanagan on the other hand was involved in a systematic program of doping players in his care with substances that the players were unaware of the contents. His actions primarily effected the players he was supposed to guide and assist and trusted him to do the right thing by them. It is a completely different situations.

I'll make this clear, I support Roberts and think that Flanagan is a low life of the highest order. In my opinion he should have faced criminal charges and should be banned from any involvement in the game for life. I wouldn't even allow him to commentate.


Completely agree with this,Flanagan is the coach i would never want involved in any capacity at my club.Even the bag of manure JT would be preferable and he is the worst coach i have seen coaching the Tigers in over 50 years.

Flano applied for the CC job and lost out to snoops, so why would the club hire him for the top job?

He is far too capable for Madge to sign as an assistant. Madge was burned by Siebold, he's only hiring assistants that are so bad they can't even be considered for the top job.

 

[cochise]

What I really find depressing about this push for Flano as coach with WT is the way in which WT is perceived as an option of last resort. Why is there no push to see him at another club?

I've been pushing for John Morris, for a number of reasons. Firstly, he achieved good results with the Sharks at a difficult period in that club's history (there have been a few). I refer specifically to the loss of Gallen. Morris also was integral in the Sharks' highly successful pathways initiative. Morris is also an educated man which I believe is important insofar as communication with players and people management is concerned. Finally, I view him as having been influenced by Tim Sheens. An ongoing relationship between the two is crucial for success at WTs.

He wasn't wanted by the Sharks though and a lot of that seems to be because of communication issues with the players.

 

[jirskyr]

Watch the dressingroom before/halftime/after the game, he’s lost them. Just yelling and swearing at them over and over again gets old quick!
I know there is not much on offer but I would take the drug cheat any day over this hoax. Our season is done and he still picks Chee Kim who won’t be here next year, instead of giving Ogden or Cini a go at centre, he’s got no idea.
We are just wasting more years with him there. My problem with Flanagan is how would he work with sheens? They don’t seem like they would mix.

My brother played under Gould in the early 90's at Penrith and he has maintained his friendship with him ever since. Not long they had a catch up and Gould said to him that you have 2 blasts a year at the most and that's it, otherwise the blast loses its effect and you can lose the players - so you need to be really careful with when you get up your players. I just watched NRL 360 and when Blocker was asked of his opinion he said yelling and screaming doesn't work. He too said once or twice a year only. I just don't think Madge is the man to take this group forward and I have very real doubts he will want to work with Sheens

I appreciate Gould's opinion, but you are telling me Craig Bellamy only gives people a serve once or twice a year? I mean, his team is so good he may only need the occasional blow-up, but the bloke is wound tighter than a mummy.

That is a fair call. We all see him ranting and raving when in the coaching box, but I don't know that he screams at his players a lot. I think he would lose their respect if he did. He would pick his times, no doubt for maximum effect. Not sure with Bellamy, but I hardly ever see Bennett or Robinson ranting at their players. For that matter, even wound up Ricky Stuart seems calm in the dressing shed for the most part. When I hear one of the toughest blokes to play the game, Blocker Roach, say screaming all the time doesn't work, I take notice.

Also we need to bear in mind there's far less rationale for coaches like Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett to be screaming at their players - they have good rosters. Sure a very significant part of a team's success is the head coach, but also some of those head coaches have very strong club finances / networks behind them. In other words, it's all well and good if Trent Robinson does in fact not shout at his players much, when Uncle Nick provides him an annual crop of the game's top talent.

 

[jirskyr]

I'd go for Shane Flanagan. Players seem to like him. What we have ain't working.

No thank you

I agree....big no for flanagan

1. Sack Maguire

For who?

Separate issues. Maguire's sacking is not dependent upon a replacement.

As is often said, "better the devil you know".

To sack Maguire without a continuity plan, without some confidence of a replacement - that's mismanagement. One of your least sensible suggestions.

Multi national companies and Federal/State Department change CEOs and Directors routinely. Changing a football coach cannot be too difficult

And you conveniently forget we have Sheens and Hartigan to provide continuity.

You show me a big company that changes the CEO, except for unlawful activity, without having the replacement already lined up. Business suicide and your stocks will tank.

Removing a football coach isn't difficult - just tell him not to come back. Replacing a football coach is very difficult.

I didn't conveniently forget anything. You want a 70 year old ex-coach who hasn't been in the country for several years to caretake for an unspecified time until we replace the head coach? And a football general manager to help him.

I'm sorry it's a dumb suggestion to remove a coach without a proper replacement. By all means, go sign up Ciraldo or someone else (no drug or suspension cheats thanks) and let Madge finish the season, or install a caretaker if Madge quits a la John Morris, but don't just hook him with no proper replacement lined up.

Where did I write I expected Sheens to be coach or a caretaker?

Appointing a younger coach like Morris with Sheens to provide guidance is a reasonable outcome. It cannot be any worse than the banquet of bullshit that is being produced currently.

I did also mention appointing a caretaker coach whilst a robust recruitment process identifies a replacement. That can occur this year whilst a caretaker coach restores confidence in the playing group.

Mate how can Tim Sheens provide continuity for Madge being sacked? The bloke isn't even in the country. This season has 5 rounds to go, there's no point doing anything with season 2021, the new bloke wouldn't even get his feet wet.

If you were going to do it, you'd advise Madge that he's not being retained, let him see out the year, get the new guy now and have the new guy prep for the off-season. That's the smart way to do the transition.

And I'll say again - "not being worse" than the current predicament is a very bad benchmark to be setting. I want the new coach to be very strong odds of putting in a much better performance than 2019-2021, not another limp into 9th or 10th place. Madge has proven he can get us to 9th.

You didn't answer my question. Where did I write that I expected Sheens to be coach or caretaker?

Sheens has started work now according to the post on this forum yesterday. Seems like continuity has commenced. Imagine that!

Bring in the caretaker, or bring in a permanent replacement after the process. John Morris has always been my choice. Get rid of Maguire.

You are splitting hairs, so let's split hairs then - I didn't say you explicity said Sheens would be the coach. "Caretake" doesn't mean Sheens himself has to step into the role, it also means he supports or oversees someone else in the role.

The actual point of discussion is whether we cut Madge without a replacement lined up, which you are in favour of, and I am not. If John Morris is the long-term solution, so be it, get him in right now to start pre-season for 2022. I don't want caretakers 5 weeks out from the end of the season.

But I also point out there's very little Tim Sheens can do about supporting a new coach on a Zoom from the UK. Bloke needs to be in-country for that to be a workable solution.

 

[jirskyr]

Watch the dressingroom before/halftime/after the game, he’s lost them. Just yelling and swearing at them over and over again gets old quick!
I know there is not much on offer but I would take the drug cheat any day over this hoax. Our season is done and he still picks Chee Kim who won’t be here next year, instead of giving Ogden or Cini a go at centre, he’s got no idea.
We are just wasting more years with him there. My problem with Flanagan is how would he work with sheens? They don’t seem like they would mix.

Disappointing to see so many downvotes on this post.

Did everyone hear Blocker and Elias on 360 last night? A must watch.

Cliffs:

- Benny said he'd talk to his team mates and tell them weakness he saw on field, leadership role... did a lot of the chatting in the sheds

- Blocker said he wouldn't even listen to the coach in the sheds, he'd be doing his own thing and listen to his team mates.

- Blocker said none of the good coaches he had ever had to swear, yell and carry on like that. Message was simple.

- Blocker mentioned again, which he has stated a few times before that he believes a coach only has 1 or 2 real blow ups a year in them.
.
- Both said which Pk agreed with NO LEADERS in this group. Supposed to be a player rallying in the troops in the sheds, on the field.... without the exception of AD, there is NO ONE. Mentioned Tamou talks it up in the media then plays 5 minutes a half. Its a clear weakness we lack.

Adam Reynolds would've been great.
Nicho Hynes.

Something we have really lacked since Farah left.


Matty and Fletch also had some good points to add on the topic.

Only defence of Madge that makes any sense is that he is over compensating because the senior playing roster has a lack of natural leaders. This results in having to take on a bigger role on game day than he should have to. Has to talk and yell more.

All well and good but the recruitment has failed to identify this problem. To amke matters worse Maguire brought in players like BJ and Roberts when they were the exact opposite of what was needed.

You reap what you sow!

Lets find a coach who can clearly identify short coming in the roster and recruit players who will address the culture issues.

All reasonable comments, also all just opinions. Also not one person in that group actually been a head coach before.

I do find it interesting that Ben Elias and Blocker will be quoted as reasonable operators in this thread, but lashed for being morons in other threads.

 

[Snake]

What I really find depressing about this push for Flano as coach with WT is the way in which WT is perceived as an option of last resort. Why is there no push to see him at another club?

I've been pushing for John Morris, for a number of reasons. Firstly, he achieved good results with the Sharks at a difficult period in that club's history (there have been a few). I refer specifically to the loss of Gallen. Morris also was integral in the Sharks' highly successful pathways initiative. Morris is also an educated man which I believe is important insofar as communication with players and people management is concerned. Finally, I view him as having been influenced by Tim Sheens. An ongoing relationship between the two is crucial for success at WTs.

He wasn't wanted by the Sharks though and a lot of that seems to be because of communication issues with the players.

He was not wanted as they had already decided to go elsewhere … they punted him early as they did not want the embarrassment of sacking him when they made another FINAL SERIES .. have you forgotten how they did it !
As far as communication issues that side was playing great footy every week ..I would like some of that communication happening at my club !