Madge Maguire - Mega Thread

[Telltails]

Can anyone point out anything that Madge has started that can't be built upon by a new coach next year? To me it's not as if changing coaches will delay us by months or years, it will make no difference. We're basically starting off preseason with a clean slate regardless.

We have to change our assistants and tactics. Change our attacking and defensive game plans. Punt as many players as we can, attract stronger players and try retain as many of our promising juniors as possible.

It's not as if we're halfway through a game changing master plan. Everything we've done has failed, we need to blow things up and start again regardless of who will be coaching. So now it becomes who is the best person to shape our future?

I was a Madge supporter until about halfway through this season when it became clear that he could not or would not adjust our game plans, and that he couldn't motivate our players to even try their best. He now seems incredibly one dimensional, just an old man that yells a lot. Where's the subtleties? Where's the tactical genius? Where's the ability to have players run through walls for you and to create a vision that others want to be a part of? He's a nice guy that cares about the future of this club but in today's game i don't think he's suitable to be a head coach anymore.

How would you possibly know what the game plan is when there is zero direction on the field? Instead of trying to figure out Maguire perhaps start listening to all the players who know something about the game who have all consistently identified our weakneses - no leadership on the field. Maguire is as good as gone but the biggest problem still exists and what we need doesn't want a bar of us.

 

[jirskyr]

Flanagan has the reputation of being a canny operator and excellent man manage

Also a reputation of being a salary cap cheat, a ban cheat and a systematic drug cheat.

Do I not recall a series of comments from you, several months ago, about concerns for Madge's duty of care towards players? If so, Flanagan should raise your hackles in alarm for player welfare as much as any potential head coach in the country.

 

[Needaname]

Flanagan has the reputation of being a canny operator and excellent man manage

Also a reputation of being a salary cap cheat, a ban cheat and a systematic drug cheat.

Do I not recall a series of comments from you, several months ago, about concerns for Madge's duty of care towards players? If so, Flanagan should raise your hackles in alarm for player welfare as much as any potential head coach in the country.

Uh oh

 

[barra]

Premiership-winning coach Shane Flanagan denies he is in talks to replace Michael Maguire as the head coach of the Wests Tigers.

Pressure mounted on Maguire throughout another disappointing season for the joint venture. It reached boiling point after the Tigers’ hefty loss to the cellar-dwelling Bulldogs in the final round of the season.

The likes of Paul Green, Cameron Ciraldo, Kristian Woolf and Flanagan could all be in the frame for the head coaching gig at Concord should the Tigers part company with Maguire.

However, Flanagan said that if the Tigers had begun considering Maguire’s replacement, he hadn’t been notified.

“There’s no position available. That’s the way I look at it and my management look at it,” Flanagan said on Fox League on Sunday.

“Michael Maguire is the coach. It’s been a tough year for the Tigers. I just let those things go by. It’s rugby league and the rumour mill at its best.”

However, Flanagan said he would be grab a head coaching role with both hands if he was offered one.

“I’m interested in as head coaching role. That’s what I do,” the former Sharks boss said.

“I was lucky enough to win a comp with the Sharks. I’ve got the bug, I want to do it, I think I do it well but the Wests Tigers are off the cards.

“If something comes up in the future at any club and I was lucky enough to get to that job, I’d look at it as a privilege.”

Leading into the final month of the regular season, the Tigers had still been a chance to make the finals series for the first time since 2011.

However, when the side lost its last three games by an average margin of 27 points, pundits were left to question whether Maguire had lost the dressing room.

After their 38-0 loss to the wooden-spooners in the final round, Maguire affirmed his desire to see out his contract with the Tigers.

“I know exactly where the team is going, and the organisation knows where the team is going,” he said.

“We’ve got to make sure that we continue to be disciplined about what we’re trying to build here.

“Changing teams and changing pathways of clubs takes a little bit of time.

“It doesn’t mean that you can’t get better performances on the park, I’ll acknowledge that, but it’s about continually sticking to the path of where we’re going with this group.”

Regardless of who is steering the ship, the Tigers will hope the additions of Jackson Hastings and Oliver Gildart to the roster can help turn things around next year.

Flanagan has the reputation of being a canny operator and excellent man manager. Wasn't it his barbeque that tipped the scales in the Sharks' favour of signing Luke Lewis?

Sheens had a massive crack at Lewis in 2012 also...

Lewis said just this weekend on radio that the main reason he did not come to us was the poor facilities... it just didn't have a good 'vibe' to it!

 

[weststigerman]

Premiership-winning coach Shane Flanagan denies he is in talks to replace Michael Maguire as the head coach of the Wests Tigers.

Pressure mounted on Maguire throughout another disappointing season for the joint venture. It reached boiling point after the Tigers’ hefty loss to the cellar-dwelling Bulldogs in the final round of the season.

The likes of Paul Green, Cameron Ciraldo, Kristian Woolf and Flanagan could all be in the frame for the head coaching gig at Concord should the Tigers part company with Maguire.

However, Flanagan said that if the Tigers had begun considering Maguire’s replacement, he hadn’t been notified.

“There’s no position available. That’s the way I look at it and my management look at it,” Flanagan said on Fox League on Sunday.

“Michael Maguire is the coach. It’s been a tough year for the Tigers. I just let those things go by. It’s rugby league and the rumour mill at its best.”

However, Flanagan said he would be grab a head coaching role with both hands if he was offered one.

“I’m interested in as head coaching role. That’s what I do,” the former Sharks boss said.

“I was lucky enough to win a comp with the Sharks. I’ve got the bug, I want to do it, I think I do it well but the Wests Tigers are off the cards.

“If something comes up in the future at any club and I was lucky enough to get to that job, I’d look at it as a privilege.”

Leading into the final month of the regular season, the Tigers had still been a chance to make the finals series for the first time since 2011.

However, when the side lost its last three games by an average margin of 27 points, pundits were left to question whether Maguire had lost the dressing room.

After their 38-0 loss to the wooden-spooners in the final round, Maguire affirmed his desire to see out his contract with the Tigers.

“I know exactly where the team is going, and the organisation knows where the team is going,” he said.

“We’ve got to make sure that we continue to be disciplined about what we’re trying to build here.

“Changing teams and changing pathways of clubs takes a little bit of time.

“It doesn’t mean that you can’t get better performances on the park, I’ll acknowledge that, but it’s about continually sticking to the path of where we’re going with this group.”

Regardless of who is steering the ship, the Tigers will hope the additions of Jackson Hastings and Oliver Gildart to the roster can help turn things around next year.

Flanagan has the reputation of being a canny operator and excellent man manager. Wasn't it his barbeque that tipped the scales in the Sharks' favour of signing Luke Lewis?

Sheens had a massive crack at Lewis in 2012 also...

Lewis said just this weekend on radio that the main reason he did not come to us was the poor facilities... it just didn't have a good 'vibe' to it!

No way. Surely it was Shane Flanagan's BBQ.

We're going to have good facilities next year, but I'm not sure what kind of BBQ we're getting.

 

[jirskyr]

Can anyone point out anything that Madge has started that can’t be built upon by a new coach next year? To me it’s not as if changing coaches will delay us by months or years, it will make no difference. We’re basically starting off preseason with a clean slate regardless.

Surely that's pretty naive considering what we just went through post-Ivan?

What were the worst and most damaging outcomes of having Cleary walk out? It was the sudden and dramatic change in roster strategy, coaching style, potential long-term planning for the first grade and junior players.

Name the players brought to the club during the short period of Ivan Cleary's tenure 03/Apr/17 to 28/Oct/18?

* Packer - huge financial drain and flop after his first season
* Robbie Rochow - managed about half a decent year, then fell right off
* Pita Godinet - no further comment
* Matulino - tried hard, medically retired
* Josh Reynolds - tried hard, always injured, waste of money
* Fonua - average output
* Moses Mbye - never matched his pay packet
* Tyson Gamble - barely used
* Ryan Matterson - signed under Ivan, quit after a year
* Oliver Clarke - average backup
* Chris McQueen - also probably not an Ivan-initated signing, but must have been okayed as he signed after Ivan was named coach (2 weeks)
* Tui Lolohea - played 19 matches only
* MWZ - played 25 matches, followed Ivan back to Penrith, now retired
* Twal - technically joined during Ivan's time (4 weeks after), probably not initiated by Ivan, but a good get
* Corey Thompson - fine player, no issues
* Momirovski - also no issue with that signing

Development players
* Kane Bradley - gone
* Jock Madden - average halves backup (technically not development)
* Zac Cini - very average back
* Tommy Talau - probably long-term first grade capable
* Alex Seyfarth - probably most improved under Madge

It can be said without argument that the vast majority of signings made under Cleary were bad long-term outcomes for Tigers, and most of the average short-termers were moved on under Madge.

Whether or not you agree with Tigers moving on Momirovski, Thompson, Gamble etc., the fact remains they were not retained under the new regime.

And that's the primary issue. Change the coach and you end up crossing through about half (or more) of your roster, who were bought for a specific purpose to play under a specific strategy. This is especially true of a low-ranked club like Tigers who are trying to cobble together a competitive roster and don't have the luxury of a significant number of experienced / rep-level players who can maintain the club culture and their own personal output during a change in head coach.

If we sack Madge, so be it, but we can't be naive that a significant number of his decisions may be significantly negatively impacted. The new coach is very unlikely to be a consistently proven top-tier coach, who would be most likely to be able to get better outcomes from an unchanged roster. Instead it's likely to be a middle-range coach (at best), who would look to stamp their mark on the roster and shake up the style of play.

That "shake up" will not work with a significant number of the average NRL players we have, and the work with those players will be lost. It happens every time you change head coach, the roster gets overhauled by default. You might well say that's a good thing, but it's not as if we get a clean slate - we will have a Maguire hangover for at least 12-18 months.

 

[pawsandclaws1]

Flanagan has the reputation of being a canny operator and excellent man manage

Also a reputation of being a salary cap cheat, a ban cheat and a systematic drug cheat.

Do I not recall a series of comments from you, several months ago, about concerns for Madge's duty of care towards players? If so, Flanagan should raise your hackles in alarm for player welfare as much as any potential head coach in the country.

I made my position on Flanagan and events at the Sharks clear. I also noted that he had served his punishment and redemption is possible.

I do hope the findings of the WTs' review are made publicly available but I don't believe this will occur.

 

[jirskyr]

I made my position on Flanagan and events at the Sharks clear. I also noted that he had served his punishment and redemption is possible.

Madge can be redeemed also, by the same logic?

 

[pawsandclaws1]

I made my position on Flanagan and events at the Sharks clear. I also noted that he had served his punishment and redemption is possible.

Madge can be redeemed also, by the same logic?

As I wrote earlier, I would like the findings of the review to be made publicly available. I don't believe this will happen but I'm sure it would make interesting reading.

As for Maguire, he can redeem himself anywhere but WTs. Is there another club looking to play dumbed down football?

 

[balmain boy]

Can anyone point out anything that Madge has started that can’t be built upon by a new coach next year? To me it’s not as if changing coaches will delay us by months or years, it will make no difference. We’re basically starting off preseason with a clean slate regardless.

Surely that's pretty naive considering what we just went through post-Ivan?

What were the worst and most damaging outcomes of having Cleary walk out? It was the sudden and dramatic change in roster strategy, coaching style, potential long-term planning for the first grade and junior players.

Name the players brought to the club during the short period of Ivan Cleary's tenure 03/Apr/17 to 28/Oct/18?

* Packer - huge financial drain and flop after his first season
* Robbie Rochow - managed about half a decent year, then fell right off
* Pita Godinet - no further comment
* Matulino - tried hard, medically retired
* Josh Reynolds - tried hard, always injured, waste of money
* Fonua - average output
* Moses Mbye - never matched his pay packet
* Tyson Gamble - barely used
* Ryan Matterson - signed under Ivan, quit after a year
* Oliver Clarke - average backup
* Chris McQueen - also probably not an Ivan-initated signing, but must have been okayed as he signed after Ivan was named coach (2 weeks)
* Tui Lolohea - played 19 matches only
* MWZ - played 25 matches, followed Ivan back to Penrith, now retired
* Twal - technically joined during Ivan's time (4 weeks after), probably not initiated by Ivan, but a good get
* Corey Thompson - fine player, no issues
* Momirovski - also no issue with that signing

Development players
* Kane Bradley - gone
* Jock Madden - average halves backup (technically not development)
* Zac Cini - very average back
* Tommy Talau - probably long-term first grade capable
* Alex Seyfarth - probably most improved under Madge

It can be said without argument that the vast majority of signings made under Cleary were bad long-term outcomes for Tigers, and most of the average short-termers were moved on under Madge.

Whether or not you agree with Tigers moving on Momirovski, Thompson, Gamble etc., the fact remains they were not retained under the new regime.

And that's the primary issue. Change the coach and you end up crossing through about half (or more) of your roster, who were bought for a specific purpose to play under a specific strategy. This is especially true of a low-ranked club like Tigers who are trying to cobble together a competitive roster and don't have the luxury of a significant number of experienced / rep-level players who can maintain the club culture and their own personal output during a change in head coach.

If we sack Madge, so be it, but we can't be naive that a significant number of his decisions may be significantly negatively impacted. The new coach is very unlikely to be a consistently proven top-tier coach, who would be most likely to be able to get better outcomes from an unchanged roster. Instead it's likely to be a middle-range coach (at best), who would look to stamp their mark on the roster and shake up the style of play.

That "shake up" will not work with a significant number of the average NRL players we have, and the work with those players will be lost. It happens every time you change head coach, the roster gets overhauled by default. You might well say that's a good thing, but it's not as if we get a clean slate - we will have a Maguire hangover for at least 12-18 months.

The current strategy has failed. So we need a new strategy in any case, and new players to fit that strategy, so your point is mute.

The point is we need to develop a strategy that will work, and get players who will help us achieve that strategy. This can be done by any coach, who works in partnership with the football department who would ultimately define our strategies and goals.

 

[balmain boy]

Can anyone point out anything that Madge has started that can't be built upon by a new coach next year? To me it's not as if changing coaches will delay us by months or years, it will make no difference. We're basically starting off preseason with a clean slate regardless.

We have to change our assistants and tactics. Change our attacking and defensive game plans. Punt as many players as we can, attract stronger players and try retain as many of our promising juniors as possible.

It's not as if we're halfway through a game changing master plan. Everything we've done has failed, we need to blow things up and start again regardless of who will be coaching. So now it becomes who is the best person to shape our future?

I was a Madge supporter until about halfway through this season when it became clear that he could not or would not adjust our game plans, and that he couldn't motivate our players to even try their best. He now seems incredibly one dimensional, just an old man that yells a lot. Where's the subtleties? Where's the tactical genius? Where's the ability to have players run through walls for you and to create a vision that others want to be a part of? He's a nice guy that cares about the future of this club but in today's game i don't think he's suitable to be a head coach anymore.

How would you possibly know what the game plan is when there is zero direction on the field? Instead of trying to figure out Maguire perhaps start listening to all the players who know something about the game who have all consistently identified our weakneses - no leadership on the field. Maguire is as good as gone but the biggest problem still exists and what we need doesn't want a bar of us.

Of course we need stronger players, as i said, but Madge has had 3 years and shown zero capability to define a strategy that his players can successfully execute. That to me suggests he's not the man to define our next few years.

 

[balmain boy]

Can anyone point out anything that Madge has started that can't be built upon by a new coach next year? To me it's not as if changing coaches will delay us by months or years, it will make no difference. We're basically starting off preseason with a clean slate regardless.

We have to change our assistants and tactics. Change our attacking and defensive game plans. Punt as many players as we can, attract stronger players and try retain as many of our promising juniors as possible.

It's not as if we're halfway through a game changing master plan. Everything we've done has failed, we need to blow things up and start again regardless of who will be coaching. So now it becomes who is the best person to shape our future?

I was a Madge supporter until about halfway through this season when it became clear that he could not or would not adjust our game plans, and that he couldn't motivate our players to even try their best. He now seems incredibly one dimensional, just an old man that yells a lot. Where's the subtleties? Where's the tactical genius? Where's the ability to have players run through walls for you and to create a vision that others want to be a part of? He's a nice guy that cares about the future of this club but in today's game i don't think he's suitable to be a head coach anymore.

Agree with almost everything you say,except changing coaches will make a LOT of difference in several ways
-a new coach will possibly motivate what is currently a disengaged playing group
-a new coach will have some attraction to new recruits where we currently have zero appeal
-a new coach provides new hopw for supporters...new tactics,new systems,new processes..without which were doomed for the spoon

Yes of course, this was implied in what i said. The current setup doesn't achieve any of the points you listed. A different setup might. It may not. But it might...

 

[weststigerman]

Can anyone point out anything that Madge has started that can’t be built upon by a new coach next year? To me it’s not as if changing coaches will delay us by months or years, it will make no difference. We’re basically starting off preseason with a clean slate regardless.

Surely that's pretty naive considering what we just went through post-Ivan?

What were the worst and most damaging outcomes of having Cleary walk out? It was the sudden and dramatic change in roster strategy, coaching style, potential long-term planning for the first grade and junior players.

Name the players brought to the club during the short period of Ivan Cleary's tenure 03/Apr/17 to 28/Oct/18?

* Packer - huge financial drain and flop after his first season
* Robbie Rochow - managed about half a decent year, then fell right off
* Pita Godinet - no further comment
* Matulino - tried hard, medically retired
* Josh Reynolds - tried hard, always injured, waste of money
* Fonua - average output
* Moses Mbye - never matched his pay packet
* Tyson Gamble - barely used
* Ryan Matterson - signed under Ivan, quit after a year
* Oliver Clarke - average backup
* Chris McQueen - also probably not an Ivan-initated signing, but must have been okayed as he signed after Ivan was named coach (2 weeks)
* Tui Lolohea - played 19 matches only
* MWZ - played 25 matches, followed Ivan back to Penrith, now retired
* Twal - technically joined during Ivan's time (4 weeks after), probably not initiated by Ivan, but a good get
* Corey Thompson - fine player, no issues
* Momirovski - also no issue with that signing

Development players
* Kane Bradley - gone
* Jock Madden - average halves backup (technically not development)
* Zac Cini - very average back
* Tommy Talau - probably long-term first grade capable
* Alex Seyfarth - probably most improved under Madge

It can be said without argument that the vast majority of signings made under Cleary were bad long-term outcomes for Tigers, and most of the average short-termers were moved on under Madge.

Whether or not you agree with Tigers moving on Momirovski, Thompson, Gamble etc., the fact remains they were not retained under the new regime.

And that's the primary issue. Change the coach and you end up crossing through about half (or more) of your roster, who were bought for a specific purpose to play under a specific strategy. This is especially true of a low-ranked club like Tigers who are trying to cobble together a competitive roster and don't have the luxury of a significant number of experienced / rep-level players who can maintain the club culture and their own personal output during a change in head coach.

If we sack Madge, so be it, but we can't be naive that a significant number of his decisions may be significantly negatively impacted. The new coach is very unlikely to be a consistently proven top-tier coach, who would be most likely to be able to get better outcomes from an unchanged roster. Instead it's likely to be a middle-range coach (at best), who would look to stamp their mark on the roster and shake up the style of play.

That "shake up" will not work with a significant number of the average NRL players we have, and the work with those players will be lost. It happens every time you change head coach, the roster gets overhauled by default. You might well say that's a good thing, but it's not as if we get a clean slate - we will have a Maguire hangover for at least 12-18 months.

The current strategy has failed. So we need a new strategy in any case, and new players to fit that strategy, so your point is mute.

The point is we need to develop a strategy that will work, and get players who will help us achieve that strategy. This can be done by any coach, who works in partnership with the football department who would ultimately define our strategies and goals.

I don't disagree with what you've said. However there will be more pain in 2022 and 2023 with a new coach. Think about some of the players who haven't had a good year but are on long contracts with WT: Musgrove, Nofa, Brooks, Joffa etc. If the next coach doesn't rate them, who's to say they don't become the new Packer, Reynolds, Mbye players who are either being shuffled around or playing reserve grade while taking up a chunk of the salary cap?

I still believe the best chance of getting rid of the non-performers is with the current coach who has already tried and failed with these guys. A new coach will likely buy the likes of Brooks more time for the inevitable. It may be possible to change the strategy with Sheens here and a strong assistant helping Madge. Maybe I'm wrong, but I suppose that's what the review is for.

 

[Newtown]

I made my position on Flanagan and events at the Sharks clear. I also noted that he had served his punishment and redemption is possible.

Madge can be redeemed also, by the same logic?

No way. Madge won't budge an inch.

 

[THE_POM]

Review has been completed & will be presented to the board by Wednesday. Madge appears to have survived the cut, not so much his assistants. The support staff will not be in Madge's complete control but more or less club appointed, with the review under lining that they are well past the current game.
Player support was high & will be a major supporting factoring in Madge staying.

 

[jrtiger]

Review has been completed & will be presented to the board by Wednesday. Madge appears to have survived the cut, not so much his assistants. The support staff will not be in Madge's complete control but more or less club appointed, with the review under lining that they are well past the current game.
Player support was high & will be a major supporting factoring in Madge staying.

any word on the future of Adam Hartigan?

 

[TillLindemann]

Review has been completed & will be presented to the board by Wednesday. Madge appears to have survived the cut, not so much his assistants. The support staff will not be in Madge's complete control but more or less club appointed, with the review under lining that they are well past the current game.
Player support was high & will be a major supporting factoring in Madge staying.

Excellent news, thanks Pom.

 

[THE_POM]

Review has been completed & will be presented to the board by Wednesday. Madge appears to have survived the cut, not so much his assistants. The support staff will not be in Madge's complete control but more or less club appointed, with the review under lining that they are well past the current game.
Player support was high & will be a major supporting factoring in Madge staying.

any word on the future of Adam Hartigan?

He will still be there, but a restructure on recruitment process has also been requested/suggested. Sheens will take a role in this not just junior recruitment.

 

[PJ_]

Review has been completed & will be presented to the board by Wednesday. Madge appears to have survived the cut, not so much his assistants. The support staff will not be in Madge's complete control but more or less club appointed, with the review under lining that they are well past the current game.
Player support was high & will be a major supporting factoring in Madge staying.

We'd better improve. Can't keep getting banned.

 

[Geo]

Review compiled ...grabs popcorn..