NRL. Anti-Vaxers..

[jirskyr]

What has happened is that the definition of “gene therapy” has changed (just as the definition of vaccine was changed to cover the new vaccines). Prior to this year, all mRNA therapies were classified as gene therapies.

What does it matter what the definition is or is not? It does not alter your DNA. When they introduce new technologies there often isn't a set or agreed definition of what the new technology is.

 

[fibrodreaming]

What has happened is that the definition of “gene therapy” has changed (just as the definition of vaccine was changed to cover the new vaccines). Prior to this year, all mRNA therapies were classified as gene therapies.


What does it matter what the definition is or is not? It does not alter your DNA. When they introduce new technologies there often isn't a set or agreed definition of what the new technology is.

Couldn't agree more. I made the point that we were dealing in semantics and expressed surprise that the guys attacked me on that point. I regarded the point as trivial and not central to my argument.

 

[fibrodreaming]

As demonstrated many time it is not gene therapy. The mRNA vaccines do not enter the nucleus and therefore cannot change your DNA. You are spreading misinformation and should be banned for doing so.

So you keep saying. I notice you are a little more precise with your objection this time. You only speak of mRNA vaccines now.

I made the point that they were regarded as gene therapies up to last year but they changed the definition to exclude mRNA.

But what about the AstraZeneca vaccine ?? The link I provided to Oxford University's Vaccine Group advises that the DNA of the AZ does enter the nucleus.

As jirskyr said, what does it matter ? In truth it doesn't. We know how the vaccines work and we are playing with definitions.

What does make me cranky is that you and TT have succumbed to your inner totalitarian and demanded that I be banned. That does not reflect well on either of you.

 

[Pascoes_barber]

Of course they are gene therapies, that's well recognised. But it doesn't matter for this discussion. They have never been used before in these numbers and there are no long term safety data.

Mods, we really need to bring the downvote option back. So people who post grossly inaccurate and fantasy comments like this, about covid vaccine being "gene therapy", get to see that we know it's BS.

Flag the post as misinformation and it'll get deleted.

 

[fibrodreaming]

It does not alter your DNA.

One last point. Virologists have known for decades that RNA can become incorporated in our DNA through an enzyme called reverse transcriptase.

Professor Luc Montagnier, who won the 2008 Nobel Prize for his discovery of the HIV virus, was quoted in a recent interview re the covid vaccines:

“The human genome contains 7% to 9% of endogenous retrovirus sequences. Some of these sequences code for reverse transcription of RNA into DNA. Therefore, it is possible that the spike protein mRNA of the vaccine could be absorbed by human cells, reverse transcribed, and integrated as a human gene in these cells.”

I think this will be my lost comment on this thread. I've said too much.

 

[Pascoes_barber]

Gee *that's a shame.*

 

[FinestTigers]

My post yesterday was not directed at any other one individual, it was a reply to dgilly's post.

Yesterday's post was to try to highlight some of the problems and was only directed at the forum and social media in general.

The problems i was talking about were about, freedom of speech and differing opinions on this forum, these problems will never be going away and would even get worse, but the very disappointing thing now is this,
although i was not a victim in this instance, i did see the potential of this happening to other posters and i therefore spoke up,
let me tell you this, no one can say that the bullies, egoists, and narcissists don't exist on this forum or any other social media site.
And also this, it is not a nice feeling to have when you know you are being targeted and being labelled to feel that you are the black sheep of the forum indefinately. Because we are all humans and humans have pride and humans can make mistakes.

I'll now use another analogy, let us say that i'm a consumer of a product, then i realise that this product has the potential of a serious health hazard risk, i notify the company of my concerns by email,
And then the company replies to me like this, you are a liar a troublemaker and a troller who is only trying to hurt our company, now go away!

This is the exact mindset of this forum, instead of trying to look at the individuals concerns and also those that are seen as developing concerns, the forum is not only insensitive about the problem but somerimes the forum even does a mockery of it.

Some people may not have the necessary will, time and effort to defend themselves but sometimes, when someone does make a reminder of this constant problem, then it could help everyone if we listened and not look like being insensitive to what is a major problem of social media.

 

[Eyeofthetiger 0]

My post yesterday was not directed at any other one individual, it was a reply to dgilly's post.

Yesterday's post was to try to highlight some of the problems and was only directed at the forum and social media in general.

The problems i was talking about were about, freedom of speech and differing opinions on this forum, these problems will never be going away and would even get worse, but the very disappointing thing now is this,
although i was not a victim in this instance, i did see the potential of this happening to other posters and i therefore spoke up,
let me tell you this, no one can say that the bullies, egoists, and narcissists don't exist on this forum or any other social media site.
And also this, it is not a nice feeling to have when you know you are being targeted and being labelled to feel that you are the black sheep of the forum indefinately. Because we are all humans and humans have pride and humans can make mistakes.

I'll now use another analogy, let us say that i'm a consumer of a product, then i realise that this product has the potential of a serious health hazard risk, i notify the company of my concerns by email,
And then the company replies to me like this, you are a liar a troublemaker and a troller who is only trying to hurt our company, now go away!

This is the exact mindset of this forum, instead of trying to look at the individuals concerns and also those that are seen as developing concerns, the forum is not only insensitive about the problem but somerimes the forum even does a mockery of it.

Some people may not have the necessary will, time and effort to defend themselves but sometimes, when someone does make a reminder of this constant problem, then it could help everyone if we listened and not look like being insensitive to what is a major problem of social media.

@Pascoes_barber did you read this?

 

[innsaneink]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-14/cameron-smith-warns-unvaccinated-nrl-stars-may-not-play/100618780

Melbourne Storm and Queensland Maroons legend Cameron Smith warns there will be "obvious consequences" for NRL players who refuse to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 before the 2022 season.

Key points:
Unlike the AFL, the NRL is not mandating vaccination for players
But Smith says state regulations will make shots almost impossible to avoid for NRL stars
He also predicts early success for new NRL franchise the Dolphins
The NRL has decided against following the AFL's lead by mandating vaccination, leaving it up to individual choice.

But Smith, 38, who retired in March after a record 433 games with the Storm over 19 seasons as hooker and occasional half-back, said state coronavirus laws would make it almost impossible for unvaccinated players to take part.

The NRL confirmed last week that players who were not vaccinated against COVID-19 would not be able to play or train in Victoria or Queensland as state borders opened up.

For now, unvaccinated players will be able to train and play in NSW, but with strict protocols...........read more

 

[innsaneink]

My post yesterday was not directed at any other one individual, it was a reply to dgilly's post.

Yesterday's post was to try to highlight some of the problems and was only directed at the forum and social media in general.

The problems i was talking about were about, freedom of speech and differing opinions on this forum, these problems will never be going away and would even get worse, but the very disappointing thing now is this,
although i was not a victim in this instance, i did see the potential of this happening to other posters and i therefore spoke up,
let me tell you this, no one can say that the bullies, egoists, and narcissists don't exist on this forum or any other social media site.
And also this, it is not a nice feeling to have when you know you are being targeted and being labelled to feel that you are the black sheep of the forum indefinately. Because we are all humans and humans have pride and humans can make mistakes.

I'll now use another analogy, let us say that i'm a consumer of a product, then i realise that this product has the potential of a serious health hazard risk, i notify the company of my concerns by email,
And then the company replies to me like this, you are a liar a troublemaker and a troller who is only trying to hurt our company, now go away!

This is the exact mindset of this forum, instead of trying to look at the individuals concerns and also those that are seen as developing concerns, the forum is not only insensitive about the problem but somerimes the forum even does a mockery of it.

Some people may not have the necessary will, time and effort to defend themselves but sometimes, when someone does make a reminder of this constant problem, then it could help everyone if we listened and not look like being insensitive to what is a major problem of social media.

Are you forced to be here?

Dont like it? Red X top right corner

 

[FinestTigers]

My post yesterday was not directed at any other one individual, it was a reply to dgilly's post.

Yesterday's post was to try to highlight some of the problems and was only directed at the forum and social media in general.

The problems i was talking about were about, freedom of speech and differing opinions on this forum, these problems will never be going away and would even get worse, but the very disappointing thing now is this,
although i was not a victim in this instance, i did see the potential of this happening to other posters and i therefore spoke up,
let me tell you this, no one can say that the bullies, egoists, and narcissists don't exist on this forum or any other social media site.
And also this, it is not a nice feeling to have when you know you are being targeted and being labelled to feel that you are the black sheep of the forum indefinately. Because we are all humans and humans have pride and humans can make mistakes.

I'll now use another analogy, let us say that i'm a consumer of a product, then i realise that this product has the potential of a serious health hazard risk, i notify the company of my concerns by email,
And then the company replies to me like this, you are a liar a troublemaker and a troller who is only trying to hurt our company, now go away!

This is the exact mindset of this forum, instead of trying to look at the individuals concerns and also those that are seen as developing concerns, the forum is not only insensitive about the problem but somerimes the forum even does a mockery of it.

Some people may not have the necessary will, time and effort to defend themselves but sometimes, when someone does make a reminder of this constant problem, then it could help everyone if we listened and not look like being insensitive to what is a major problem of social media.

Are you forced to be here?

Dont like it? Red X top right corner

You can try it first, to see if it works.

 

[Tiger5150]

I see Fitzsimons is giving the NRL players and supporters the dumbed down version of the “official narrative” – that is, that the vaccine is very effective and we should take it to protect others.

The problem is that he can’t avoid the fundamental contradiction in the “official narrative”, which he actually alludes to in his opening remarks:

“Gentlemen, thanks for coming. And yes, I know this a pretty odd venue for a meeting – what, out in an open park and all, with me carefully standing upwind from you – but what else could I do?”

My question to Fitzy would be, if the vaccines are so effective, why are you so terrified of the unvaxxed NRL players that you will only meet them outdoors and upwind ?

And therein lies the conundrum for the “official narrative”, which is summed up best in the following:

How do you convince the unjabbed that the jab works so that they will get the jab

While

Convincing the jabbed that the jab doesn’t work so that they will get the booster.

Tricky !

As a doctor this is pretty straight forward to answer. The vaccine doesn't make you completely immune to it, but it certainly reduces the severity and risk of death and hospitalisation. Would you want to catch Covid, potentially give it to a family member who may have been too young, or too unwell to be able to get the vaccine and be the cause of their death? In regards to booster, it baffles me that this is brought up. A large proportion of vaccines require boosters at variable time frames. This is an argument by those who have minimal to no idea of how vaccines work.

I work in one of the major melbourne hospitals, treating COVID patients for the past 2 years. People who do not believe in either the severity of COVID or vaccinations, have been lucky to not watch someone loose the ability to breath and die. The long lasting burden of COVID on the Victorian and NSW health care system will be massive. When you are waiting years for your elective surgery now instead of months, you can thank covid. We have effectively lost 18 months of productivity as a large proportion of beds occupied by covid patients. That will be impossible to ever catch up on. The decision of those to not get a vaccination, and end up using valuable resources which could have been given to those who are responsible is a massive effect. The decision does not affect only you, it can have wide reaching impacts on many.

Thanks for the reply doc.

I have never doubted that Covid is a serious illness for those who are vulnerable and that for them at least, taking the vaccine makes perfect sense.

My comments were in the context of coercing/bullying NRL players into taking the vaccine in order to protect others. As you say, these vaccines are not sterilising and not even the manufacturers have claimed that they are. So there is not much justification to coerce health young men to take the vaccine when they can still catch Covid and transmit it.

We know that vaccine effectiveness fades to zero after 6 months. See this paper: “Effectiveness of Covid-19 Vaccination Against Risk of Symptomatic Infection, Hospitalization, and Death Up to 9 Months: A Swedish Total-Population Cohort Study”.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3949410

Effectiveness against symptomatic Covid starts off high (around 90%) but fades progressively over time and by the 240 day mark it goes negative. It fades faster for men and older frail individuals.

We see similar trend for severe cases. At around 90 days, the drop in efficacy is becoming noticeable. It’s under 50% by 6 months. By 250 days, it looks to be about 25% and falling. It also fades faster for men and older frail individuals.

You say: “A large proportion of vaccines require boosters at variable time frames. This is an argument by those who have minimal to no idea of how vaccines work.”

OK, so given the above study, (and other data that shows VE fading even faster than that), does this mean that we will now need to give boosters every six months to everyone over the age of 5 for the rest of their lives ?

But it goes further than that, we are giving people a gene therapy treatment for which there is no long-term safety data, and, moreover, the vaccine addresses the Wuhan spike protein which no longer exists. It would be like going to the doctor’s surgery in Autumn for a flu vax, only to be told he is giving me a shot for last year’s flu.

So, what do you reckon doc ? Boosters every six months for the term of our natural lives ?

What do the RCTs say about that ?

And what about the long term safety data relating to these **gene therapies** ? Any advice ?

I would really like to know.

Im not the bloke you addressed this to, and Im not a Dr, but the vaccines are not gene therapies. Not a big thing but saying it is a gene therapy is totally incorrect and also sounds like the info came from disreputable sources. The vaccine does not alter any of your genes. It does not enter the cellular nucleus.

EDIT: Mike has already cleared this up

 

[innsaneink]

I would if I was the one constantly complaining about the forum, its members, how its run etc etc

 

[Tiger5150]

Of course they are gene therapies, that's well recognised. But it doesn't matter for this discussion. They have never been used before in these numbers and there are no long term safety data.

They definitely are **NOT gene therapies**. This a well established fact. They never enter the nucleus of a cell and cannot alter your genes.

The mRNA enters the cells and instruct the cells to express the spike protein on it's surface, which they do. They have never been used before in a mass vaccination campaign and we have no long term safety data.

Anyway, the point is, there is no long term safety data. If you know of any, please let me know.

the mRNA is the genetic material, it enters the cell and creates the S1 protein, USING ITS OWN genetic material. It doesnt do anything to your own genes.

 

[Pascoes_barber]

@FinestTigers the great thing about evidence-based science is that opinions and feelings posted here are worth exactly we've paid for them: Nothing.

For those that enjoy peddling harmful misinformation that actively causes negative health outcomes for others gullible enough to get sucked into the rabbit-hole of conspiracy theories and anti-vax propaganda: You should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[Tiger5150]

Of course they are gene therapies, that's well recognised. But it doesn't matter for this discussion. They have never been used before in these numbers and there are no long term safety data.

They definitely are **NOT gene therapies**. This a well established fact. They never enter the nucleus of a cell and cannot alter your genes.

The mRNA enters the cells and instruct the cells to express the spike protein on it's surface, which they do. They have never been used before in a mass vaccination campaign and we have no long term safety data.

Anyway, the point is, there is no long term safety data. If you know of any, please let me know.

I understand what the vaccines do. That's why I know they are not gene therapy, the mRNA vaccines DO NOT ALTER YOUR GENES.

The cell responds as you say a produces a spike protein. The mRNA is then quickly broken down and destroyed by the cell. The spike protein is recognised as a invader and primes your immune system to produces antibodies. If you then do then get a live Covid 19 virus your immune system recognises it and does it's job. It's you immune system that does the heavy lifting.

The vaccines only stay in your system for a very short time. A matter of days, at the most a few weeks for some, and then they are gone.

We already know what the adverse effects of the vaccines are. Longitudinal studies won't reveal any additional adverse effects. What they will do is determine how long the the immune response is, and therefore how often we need boosters. Various aspects of the studies may tell us what is the most effective dose.

@mike, are you a doctor?

No

Why are some people asymptomatic despite not being vaccinated? I thought we have zero immunity to the virus before catching it?

Do you know what asymptomatic means?

 

[Chicken_Faced_Killa]

My post yesterday was not directed at any other one individual, it was a reply to dgilly's post.

Yesterday's post was to try to highlight some of the problems and was only directed at the forum and social media in general.

The problems i was talking about were about, freedom of speech and differing opinions on this forum, these problems will never be going away and would even get worse, but the very disappointing thing now is this,
although i was not a victim in this instance, i did see the potential of this happening to other posters and i therefore spoke up,
let me tell you this, no one can say that the bullies, egoists, and narcissists don't exist on this forum or any other social media site.
And also this, it is not a nice feeling to have when you know you are being targeted and being labelled to feel that you are the black sheep of the forum indefinately. Because we are all humans and humans have pride and humans can make mistakes.

I'll now use another analogy, let us say that i'm a consumer of a product, then i realise that this product has the potential of a serious health hazard risk, i notify the company of my concerns by email,
And then the company replies to me like this, you are a liar a troublemaker and a troller who is only trying to hurt our company, now go away!

This is the exact mindset of this forum, instead of trying to look at the individuals concerns and also those that are seen as developing concerns, the forum is not only insensitive about the problem but somerimes the forum even does a mockery of it.

Some people may not have the necessary will, time and effort to defend themselves but sometimes, when someone does make a reminder of this constant problem, then it could help everyone if we listened and not look like being insensitive to what is a major problem of social media.

You can’t talk freedom of speech as you were one of the biggest supporters of removing the down vote. Taking away a form of expression for others. Now people are forced to verbally express their dislike. You can’t complain about both systems

 

[FinestTigers]

You can’t talk freedom of speech as you were one of the biggest supporters of removing the down vote. Taking away a form of expression for others. Now people are forced to verbally express their dislike. You can’t complain about both systems

Sign language is an important part of communicating, but unfortunately when its used in social media sites, there's no doubt that people have unfairly and deliberately misused it for the purpose of mistreating other people.

 

[Chicken_Faced_Killa]

You can’t talk freedom of speech as you were one of the biggest supporters of removing the down vote. Taking away a form of expression for others. Now people are forced to verbally express their dislike. You can’t complain about both systems

Sign language is an important part of communicating, but unfortunately when its used in social media sites, there's no doubt that people have unfairly and deliberately misused it for the purpose of mistreating other people.

As I said you can’t complain about being bullied and call out people for picking on you when using down votes and when that system is removed start complaining about people expressing a different point of view.

 

[Eyeofthetiger 0]

Of course they are gene therapies, that's well recognised. But it doesn't matter for this discussion. They have never been used before in these numbers and there are no long term safety data.

They definitely are **NOT gene therapies**. This a well established fact. They never enter the nucleus of a cell and cannot alter your genes.

The mRNA enters the cells and instruct the cells to express the spike protein on it's surface, which they do. They have never been used before in a mass vaccination campaign and we have no long term safety data.

Anyway, the point is, there is no long term safety data. If you know of any, please let me know.

I understand what the vaccines do. That's why I know they are not gene therapy, the mRNA vaccines DO NOT ALTER YOUR GENES.

The cell responds as you say a produces a spike protein. The mRNA is then quickly broken down and destroyed by the cell. The spike protein is recognised as a invader and primes your immune system to produces antibodies. If you then do then get a live Covid 19 virus your immune system recognises it and does it's job. It's you immune system that does the heavy lifting.

The vaccines only stay in your system for a very short time. A matter of days, at the most a few weeks for some, and then they are gone.

We already know what the adverse effects of the vaccines are. Longitudinal studies won't reveal any additional adverse effects. What they will do is determine how long the the immune response is, and therefore how often we need boosters. Various aspects of the studies may tell us what is the most effective dose.

@mike, are you a doctor?

No

Why are some people asymptomatic despite not being vaccinated? I thought we have zero immunity to the virus before catching it?

Do you know what asymptomatic means?

Yes. Your point?