One ref

[mike]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Yes, the teams with less skill of wrestling together still manage to do it better because there only one ref

Irrelevant

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Yes, the teams with less skill of wrestling together still manage to do it better because there only one ref

Irrelevant

How is it irrelevant at all ? when there stats clearly showing that having one ref means more wrestling even in teams that don’t train it together that meant something. It’s not just irrelevant because you say so

 

[jirskyr]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

Because it's the speed at which the decision is made...a roll on 6 again doesn't allow the defences to continually reset as the game stops when a penalty is awarded and the kick for touch...

The refs still have the option to blow a penalty if they deem it so..like when Cammy is trying to rip someone's ears off...but can call 6 again if the defending side is merely deliberately slowing the PTB..

The only concern will be as if they are up to it..

So refs can decide whether they want it to be 6 again or a penalty..... that’s going to lead to a whole bunch of inconsistency and angry fans/players. Just more grey areas in the rules which is the last thing we need. Either make it 6 again for everything or did nothing

I don't agree at all. Right now it's penalty or not penalty. What difference is there if they introduce 6-again in place of a penalty? You will be able to tell, the ref blow a penalty or simply signal 6-again (we don't know for a fact what the gesture will be), and you'll know it was an infringement, and the beauty is the play will continue and you won't have time to waste to think about it any further.

And then if refs feel the infrigements are sufficient to warrant a penalty, i.e. kick for touch or shot at goal, then so be it. Or to stop a team and warn or sin-bin.

That's another thing I hadn't thought of - this will allow refs to reset a tackle count in tough situations like late-game or golden point, without having to blow a goal-kicking penalty situation.

Because teams will want a penalty and instead they’ll get a 6 again or vice versa. How is a single referee meant to be able to control an entire game plus know what call a team wants at certain times. There will be countless times this situation will happen.

In a golden point situation it should ALWAYS be a penalty. Too many times are teams offside and refs are too scared to call it - if you give away a penalty and lose the game because of it too bad. Instead, they’ll give away a penalty and instead of losing its only six again which they might end up not losing from.

?? It has nothing to do with what teams want? Ref decides. If you get a penalty, there you go. If you get 6-again, there's no time to really think about it, play on man.

Golden point - offsides will still be a penalty, that won't change it. But a lost ruck ball will probably be 6-again. In which case the ref hasn't decided the match, it's still up to the defenders to hold out. I personally HATE golden point being decided by ruck infringements, because there's always doubt. At the very least with offside, even if the ref gets it wrong, there's no interpretation to be had.

 

[mike]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Yes, the teams with less skill of wrestling together still manage to do it better because there only one ref

Irrelevant

How is it irrelevant at all ? when there stats clearly showing that having one ref means more wrestling even in teams that don’t train it together that meant something. It’s not just irrelevant because you say so

The stats are irrelevant because you are comparing two entirely different scenarios. I’ll wait and see what the real stats are after a few rounds of the NRL with the rule changes and compare them to before the changes. That is the only valid comparison.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

Because it's the speed at which the decision is made...a roll on 6 again doesn't allow the defences to continually reset as the game stops when a penalty is awarded and the kick for touch...

The refs still have the option to blow a penalty if they deem it so..like when Cammy is trying to rip someone's ears off...but can call 6 again if the defending side is merely deliberately slowing the PTB..

The only concern will be as if they are up to it..

So refs can decide whether they want it to be 6 again or a penalty..... that’s going to lead to a whole bunch of inconsistency and angry fans/players. Just more grey areas in the rules which is the last thing we need. Either make it 6 again for everything or did nothing

I don't agree at all. Right now it's penalty or not penalty. What difference is there if they introduce 6-again in place of a penalty? You will be able to tell, the ref blow a penalty or simply signal 6-again (we don't know for a fact what the gesture will be), and you'll know it was an infringement, and the beauty is the play will continue and you won't have time to waste to think about it any further.

And then if refs feel the infrigements are sufficient to warrant a penalty, i.e. kick for touch or shot at goal, then so be it. Or to stop a team and warn or sin-bin.

That's another thing I hadn't thought of - this will allow refs to reset a tackle count in tough situations like late-game or golden point, without having to blow a goal-kicking penalty situation.

Because teams will want a penalty and instead they’ll get a 6 again or vice versa. How is a single referee meant to be able to control an entire game plus know what call a team wants at certain times. There will be countless times this situation will happen.

In a golden point situation it should ALWAYS be a penalty. Too many times are teams offside and refs are too scared to call it - if you give away a penalty and lose the game because of it too bad. Instead, they’ll give away a penalty and instead of losing its only six again which they might end up not losing from.

?? It has nothing to do with what teams want? Ref decides. If you get a penalty, there you go. If you get 6-again, there's no time to really think about it, play on man.

Golden point - offsides will still be a penalty, that won't change it. But a lost ruck ball will probably be 6-again. In which case the ref hasn't decided the match, it's still up to the defenders to hold out. I personally HATE golden point being decided by ruck infringements, because there's always doubt. At the very least with offside, even if the ref gets it wrong, there's no interpretation to be had.

The ref deciding what teams get is a massive issue. If a team wants a penalty and doesn’t get one that will cause drama from the fans players and coaches. It brings the ref under more scrutiny and leads to more inconsistency. How many times will we see a penalty for one infringement and then a 6 again call for the exact same thing - it will happen countless times and people will complain. It’s just another grey area in the rules which is completely unnecessary.

 

[jirskyr]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

 

[cochise]

For me the talk about one referee being on the field will improve consistency is a fallacy. There was an appearance last year (and most years) in inconsistency between the referees each week. I don't mean just when two refs are on the field, but an inconsistency between each referee and even between the performance of a single referee from week to week.

Having one ref on the field at once isn't going to alter that at all.

The one ref system may be better, time will tell, but it won't make the refs more consistent, not one bit.

I actually do not mind inconsistency between refs and games, each ref has a different personality and I don't actually have a problem with them using those differences when reffing. Some people are more authoritarian and if they way they control the game is to blow more penalties than the guy who is more of people manager who is able to encourage and push guys through a game without using the whistle as much I don't see a problem with that. I have spent most of my adult life supervising and managing teachers and you se these differences in styles everyday and guess what, both work.

I remember when I played our refs weren't the same, but we would now coming up to the game that this guy was stickler for being onside so we would make sure we paid attention to that for that game.

Basically what I am saying is refs are not robots, they are humans with personalities and we should allow them to use that to manage the game because not everyone is same.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

 

[jirskyr]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

Because it's the speed at which the decision is made...a roll on 6 again doesn't allow the defences to continually reset as the game stops when a penalty is awarded and the kick for touch...

The refs still have the option to blow a penalty if they deem it so..like when Cammy is trying to rip someone's ears off...but can call 6 again if the defending side is merely deliberately slowing the PTB..

The only concern will be as if they are up to it..

So refs can decide whether they want it to be 6 again or a penalty..... that’s going to lead to a whole bunch of inconsistency and angry fans/players. Just more grey areas in the rules which is the last thing we need. Either make it 6 again for everything or did nothing

I don't agree at all. Right now it's penalty or not penalty. What difference is there if they introduce 6-again in place of a penalty? You will be able to tell, the ref blow a penalty or simply signal 6-again (we don't know for a fact what the gesture will be), and you'll know it was an infringement, and the beauty is the play will continue and you won't have time to waste to think about it any further.

And then if refs feel the infrigements are sufficient to warrant a penalty, i.e. kick for touch or shot at goal, then so be it. Or to stop a team and warn or sin-bin.

That's another thing I hadn't thought of - this will allow refs to reset a tackle count in tough situations like late-game or golden point, without having to blow a goal-kicking penalty situation.

Because teams will want a penalty and instead they’ll get a 6 again or vice versa. How is a single referee meant to be able to control an entire game plus know what call a team wants at certain times. There will be countless times this situation will happen.

In a golden point situation it should ALWAYS be a penalty. Too many times are teams offside and refs are too scared to call it - if you give away a penalty and lose the game because of it too bad. Instead, they’ll give away a penalty and instead of losing its only six again which they might end up not losing from.

?? It has nothing to do with what teams want? Ref decides. If you get a penalty, there you go. If you get 6-again, there's no time to really think about it, play on man.

Golden point - offsides will still be a penalty, that won't change it. But a lost ruck ball will probably be 6-again. In which case the ref hasn't decided the match, it's still up to the defenders to hold out. I personally HATE golden point being decided by ruck infringements, because there's always doubt. At the very least with offside, even if the ref gets it wrong, there's no interpretation to be had.

The ref deciding what teams get is a massive issue. If a team wants a penalty and doesn’t get one that will cause drama from the fans players and coaches. It brings the ref under more scrutiny and leads to more inconsistency. How many times will we see a penalty for one infringement and then a 6 again call for the exact same thing - it will happen countless times and people will complain. It’s just another grey area in the rules which is completely unnecessary.

I don't get your point, truly. Teams will get what they get. But they'll always get something, if it's an infringement, they at least get 6-again. And we don't stop play to think about it or debate it.

It's like head-high tackles. Sometimes refs think they are very serious and march the player. Sometimes they are less serious and put on report. Sometimes just a penalty. Sometimes not even a penalty. We don't always agree on the severity of the penalty and we never will - that is unrealistic. But head high tackles are assessed and it doesn't seem to be a particularly big issue.

 

[JC99]

End of the day we’ll only truly know how it works when the footy is back. In fact it’ll be a couple weeks until we truly know because the refs will have to learn the new rules and how to implement the properly. This is all just guessing, I hope I’m wrong and one ref does help the wrestle

 

[Russell]

Let's wait and see - plenty of people poo pooing "the idea" - let's applaud or put down the rule after we see it in NRL action.

Obviously it will take a few games to iron out the anomalies - the Refs imo need to have a strict rule in their minds when they take the field e.g. in their mind, progress has been stopped, player called held, in the mind of the Ref counts to three, not released to play the ball, six again again. Do this three times and it is a penalty, do this three more times - sin bin.

Maybe not exactly that, something along those lines though, so the Ref has a model to try and adhere to, obviously the Ref can use his discretion in certain circumstances.

I think one Ref is a great idea - gives us a chance to get rid of 8 not so good referees and put them on the line. One of their main jobs should be to police the ten metres of the defending team (wouldn't be hard to improve on the touch judges we have now). Every game is televised and should the Touch judges make errors in the off side, it is ISP for you. None of their jobs should be safe.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

Because it's the speed at which the decision is made...a roll on 6 again doesn't allow the defences to continually reset as the game stops when a penalty is awarded and the kick for touch...

The refs still have the option to blow a penalty if they deem it so..like when Cammy is trying to rip someone's ears off...but can call 6 again if the defending side is merely deliberately slowing the PTB..

The only concern will be as if they are up to it..

So refs can decide whether they want it to be 6 again or a penalty..... that’s going to lead to a whole bunch of inconsistency and angry fans/players. Just more grey areas in the rules which is the last thing we need. Either make it 6 again for everything or did nothing

I don't agree at all. Right now it's penalty or not penalty. What difference is there if they introduce 6-again in place of a penalty? You will be able to tell, the ref blow a penalty or simply signal 6-again (we don't know for a fact what the gesture will be), and you'll know it was an infringement, and the beauty is the play will continue and you won't have time to waste to think about it any further.

And then if refs feel the infrigements are sufficient to warrant a penalty, i.e. kick for touch or shot at goal, then so be it. Or to stop a team and warn or sin-bin.

That's another thing I hadn't thought of - this will allow refs to reset a tackle count in tough situations like late-game or golden point, without having to blow a goal-kicking penalty situation.

Because teams will want a penalty and instead they’ll get a 6 again or vice versa. How is a single referee meant to be able to control an entire game plus know what call a team wants at certain times. There will be countless times this situation will happen.

In a golden point situation it should ALWAYS be a penalty. Too many times are teams offside and refs are too scared to call it - if you give away a penalty and lose the game because of it too bad. Instead, they’ll give away a penalty and instead of losing its only six again which they might end up not losing from.

?? It has nothing to do with what teams want? Ref decides. If you get a penalty, there you go. If you get 6-again, there's no time to really think about it, play on man.

Golden point - offsides will still be a penalty, that won't change it. But a lost ruck ball will probably be 6-again. In which case the ref hasn't decided the match, it's still up to the defenders to hold out. I personally HATE golden point being decided by ruck infringements, because there's always doubt. At the very least with offside, even if the ref gets it wrong, there's no interpretation to be had.

The ref deciding what teams get is a massive issue. If a team wants a penalty and doesn’t get one that will cause drama from the fans players and coaches. It brings the ref under more scrutiny and leads to more inconsistency. How many times will we see a penalty for one infringement and then a 6 again call for the exact same thing - it will happen countless times and people will complain. It’s just another grey area in the rules which is completely unnecessary.

I don't get your point, truly. Teams will get what they get. But they'll always get something, if it's an infringement, they at least get 6-again. And we don't stop play to think about it or debate it.

It's like head-high tackles. Sometimes refs think they are very serious and march the player. Sometimes they are less serious and put on report. Sometimes just a penalty. Sometimes not even a penalty. We don't always agree on the severity of the penalty and we never will - that is unrealistic. But head high tackles are assessed and it doesn't seem to be a particularly big issue.

The point is it’s more inconsistency in the game of rugby league which is already a massive issue. You say that everyone won’t sit there and think about it but they will, that’s what fans and commentators do. I’ve seen plenty of people whining about why a head high wasn’t put on report when another similar one was etc.

 

[Tim Sheens]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

 

[Russell]

You know it is a good rule if POLITIS doesn't like it. Bet Bellamy doesn't either.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

 

[JD Tiger]

For me the talk about one referee being on the field will improve consistency is a fallacy. There was an appearance last year (and most years) in inconsistency between the referees each week. I don't mean just when two refs are on the field, but an inconsistency between each referee and even between the performance of a single referee from week to week.

Having one ref on the field at once isn't going to alter that at all.

The one ref system may be better, time will tell, but it won't make the refs more consistent, not one bit.

I actually do not mind inconsistency between refs and games, each ref has a different personality and I don't actually have a problem with them using those differences when reffing. Some people are more authoritarian and if they way they control the game is to blow more penalties than the guy who is more of people manager who is able to encourage and push guys through a game without using the whistle as much I don't see a problem with that. I have spent most of my adult life supervising and managing teachers and you se these differences in styles everyday and guess what, both work.

I remember when I played our refs weren't the same, but we would now coming up to the game that this guy was stickler for being onside so we would make sure we paid attention to that for that game.

Basically what I am saying is refs are not robots, they are humans with personalities and we should allow them to use that to manage the game because not everyone is same.

Yeah I wouldn't mind that sort of idiosyncrasy coming into it, as long as the fundamental interpretations stay the same.

I don't think having one ref as opposed to two on the field will increase consistency in the fundamental interpretations from week to week, which is where I think the NRL largely needs to improve, so I really don't see the point of this except to save a few coins.

At the end of the day, I want a comp where Wests Tigers can do well and compete with the big boys, where if we good enough then we have a shot, instead of being disadvantaged due to politics. If the comp can be more even and we get a shot at the title (if we play well enough to deserve it) then I'm happy, and whether there's one ref or two I don't really care.

 

[cochise]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

I think this argument becomes irrelevant when you add the 6 again instead of penalty. The 2012 all stars game is the only match to have trialled 6 again. It was super fast.

I’m not sure it does. Giving away 6 again won’t deter teams from wrestling. If a penalty with a kick for touch doesn’t why would just 6 again

When you factor in the "breather" rest period that the defence no longer gets with the touch finder and time to set, it balances things up. We all know that it doesn't have the same effect when on your own line, but that is where use of the sin bin should sort things out.

Sometimes the attacking team wants a breather and a quick chat as well though, especially if you’ve just been battered 5 tackles in a row inside your own 10. I dare say most teams would prefer to have a kick for touch if the infringement is inside their own half too, then you can get in a try scoring position instead of continuing to work from your own end

This is not about giving the team what they want, it is about speeding the game up and preventing a team deliberately giving away penalties to reset their defensive line.

 

[JC99]

In regards to your last question asking whether the ruck speed has improved with two refs - compared the grand final from last year to the international games from last year, the play the ball speed is about a second half and a half slower with one ref compared to having two. Definitely more wrestle with the one ref

How many games are you measuring this by, and you measured this yourself? Not criticising, just curious the data.

NRL.com has play the ball stats on their website. Just about every international game is at slower than the NRL games. Here’s Roosters vs storm, two of the best wrestlers in the comp last year 

In comparison, this is Tonga vs Great Britain from last year 

Obviously it differs in every match but it’s always slower with the one ref system

Seriously you are comparing a Rolls Royce comp with a Datsun 120Y comp. Apples and Oranges. We won’t know until we can compare the NRL before (two refs no six again) and after (one ref and six again rule). The one ref will also remove the inconsistencies between the two refs on the field. Can’t wait.

It’s the exact same game.... there’s a clear difference. There’s definitely too much inconsistency with the two refs system, one ref should pretty much only control the ruck and the main ref everything else instead if two refs both making different calls on everything. It’s definitely one of the advantages of having one ref

It might be the same game but it’s an entirely different quality.

And somehow the game with the teams who practise wrestling together every single day for years manages to be faster than the international game where they only train for a few weeks.

That’s the difference in skill level. We’ll just have to wait to compare apples with apples.

Clubs also practice strategies of quick PTB and falling on their fronts more than international sides do. It's the battle between the two systems, of the ruck slow-down (wrestle) and the ruck advancement (hitup and landing / feet).

That’s not something you train together as a team though, that’s an individual thing. Holding someone down and wrestling in the ruck is a group effort.

Sorry that's wrong. Teams absolutely do train together on ruck speed strategies in attack. It might even be as simple as the reality of players taking internationals slightly less seriously, or slightly less ferociously, or playing them end-of-season when they are a fraction more tired, which means the wrestle is a little more effective on PTB speed.

I think the discussion lacks some purpose just yet, because you aren't just comparing matches in different situations (similar to comparing regular season to finals or to Origin), but also a very small number of matches, individual matches. If you compared all club games or all finals games to all international games, you might have more of an argument one way or another. I don't see the data as being definitive in either direction, as there is a counter-explanation for your observations.

You try tell those Tongan boys they don’t take the game as seriously. They train it together but really finding your front and getting a fast play the ball is something you do individually.

I don't think it is about the players taking the game seriously, it will sound rude it is about the quality of players. Many of our international games still have reserve grade players playing in them, these players are just a little slower at doing things than the regular NRL game. The intensity is still there because they are playing for their country but that speed around the ruck area is just little slower.

But you can also say if those players aren’t as good then they shouldn’t be as good at wrestling... the best players are masters at it. As someone mentioned earlier the best comparison will be NRL games with round 3 onwards compared to the first two rounds