Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Gary_Bakerloo]

Other countries will be introducing carbon taxes over the coming years if they have not already. Better to install it now and allow our economy to adjust because eventually, this is how the world economy will operate.

It will be similar to the GST, individuals will barely notice a difference. The opposition campaigns are similar as well. Prior to the 1993 election Keating successfully convinced the public that introducing a GST would add 15% to existing prices. The public ignored the fact that wholesale sales tax was being abolished and there would be changes to income tax. It did not help that Hewson struggled to explain the policy.

Abbott and co have argued the carbon tax is a "big new tax" and ignored the changes in the tax free threshold etc. It's moronic, but that's politics.

 

[hammertime]

Other countries will be introducing carbon taxes over the coming years if they have not already. Better to install it now and allow our economy to adjust because eventually, this is how the world economy will operate.

I don't think you can really say that with any certainty GB. How about China and India? They are the majors that we need to be concerned with. Both are growing rapidly and they will need cheap power for them to continue that.

The rest of the world is struggling to even pay the bills with massive sovereign debt (which is only going to get worse). So they are FAR less likely to implement an ETS in the next 3 years unless we have some rapid recovery.

Greece & Spain still hasn't been resolved. What happens if that sparks fear and the economy goes under again?

Jumping the gun only hurts us an puts the nation in a vulnerable position.

 

[Yossarian]

"Jumping the gun" also gives you a competitive advantage if you're already doing what everyone else will have to do eventually.

 

[AndTheKungFoSing]

Other countries will be introducing carbon taxes over the coming years if they have not already. Better to install it now and allow our economy to adjust because eventually, this is how the world economy will operate.

I don't think you can really say that with any certainty GB. How about China and India? They are the majors that we need to be concerned with. Both are growing rapidly and they will need cheap power for them to continue that.

The rest of the world is struggling to even pay the bills with massive sovereign debt (which is only going to get worse). So they are FAR less likely to implement an ETS in the next 3 years unless we have some rapid recovery.

Greece & Spain still hasn't been resolved. What happens if that sparks fear and the economy goes under again?

Jumping the gun only hurts us an puts the nation in a vulnerable position.

India -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax#India
China -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax#China

India introduced their Carbon Tax in 2010…

 

[Gary_Bakerloo]

The rest of the world is struggling to even pay the bills with massive sovereign debt (which is only going to get worse). So they are FAR less likely to implement an ETS in the next 3 years unless we have some rapid recovery.

Greece & Spain still hasn't been resolved. What happens if that sparks fear and the economy goes under again?

Jumping the gun only hurts us an puts the nation in a vulnerable position.

On the contrary, implementing now with subdued industrial growth probably means loss of employment will be less now than waiting three years. Why wait three years and employment to grow only for it to take a larger hit with a restructuring of the economy? By implementing now employment growth will be directed to the most efficient industries under the carbon tax regime.

 

[hammertime]

Other countries will be introducing carbon taxes over the coming years if they have not already. Better to install it now and allow our economy to adjust because eventually, this is how the world economy will operate.

I don't think you can really say that with any certainty GB. How about China and India? They are the majors that we need to be concerned with. Both are growing rapidly and they will need cheap power for them to continue that.

The rest of the world is struggling to even pay the bills with massive sovereign debt (which is only going to get worse). So they are FAR less likely to implement an ETS in the next 3 years unless we have some rapid recovery.

Greece & Spain still hasn't been resolved. What happens if that sparks fear and the economy goes under again?

Jumping the gun only hurts us an puts the nation in a vulnerable position.

India -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax#India
China -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax#China

India introduced their Carbon Tax in 2010…

I actually did not know that. But I do notice how small it is compared to ours.

 

[hammertime]

The rest of the world is struggling to even pay the bills with massive sovereign debt (which is only going to get worse). So they are FAR less likely to implement an ETS in the next 3 years unless we have some rapid recovery.

Greece & Spain still hasn't been resolved. What happens if that sparks fear and the economy goes under again?

Jumping the gun only hurts us an puts the nation in a vulnerable position.

On the contrary, implementing now with subdued industrial growth probably means loss of employment will be less now than waiting three years. Why wait three years and employment to grow only for it to take a larger hit with a restructuring of the economy? By implementing now employment growth will be directed to the most efficient industries under the carbon tax regime.

…Or it could be the additional level of fear needed to skid consumption to a halt and drop the economy off a cliff. Why would people keep spending when they are personally losing money in investments, yet Labor keep wasting their taxes and introducing levies and new taxes.

Fear is not something that can be measured. But it's getting pretty palpable here where I work.

 

[AndTheKungFoSing]

I actually did not know that. But I do notice how small it is compared to ours.

Because our media outlets keep that away from us… also many countries have introduced Carbon Taxes, we are not the first, not by a long shot. I am not going to get into to much, but broadcasters such as Jones, Hadley are breaching serious ethical boundaries, as are the newspapers in this country, particularly the Australian which has turned into the most bias piece of rubbish I have ever seen in my life!

While ours is larger, we have the economy to implement a tougher one. Also, the Indian Carbon Tax impacts their top 550 companies, whereas ours impacts our top 500\. We also have a considerable amount of compensation, both for business and the 'tax payers'; they do not. I would say we are positioned much better than those in India are.

I am also keen to see what China will introduce next year.

The fear around this tax is unwarranted because the facts do not get through. I am not saying everyone should support it or the Labor party (I could careless for Gillard); as with all taxes, it is always going to split opinion and the crime is that there has been no attempt by those who oppose the tax, including the LNP to properly attack it, nor suggest an actual alternative. I watched yesterday as Abbott used the the word 'socialism' when talking about the tax... this is a perfect example!

The claims this will destroy our economy and put everyone out of a job are absolutely ludicrous. The LNP _COULD_ have argued the facts, they could have attack aspects of the tax, instead they choose to scare everyone because it's easier to do and they have the support of those in the media.

The shadow cabinet are clueless (anyone who seriously thinks Hockey would be a smart fit for Treasurer is absolutely retarded, sorry to be blunt, but he thinks the views of economists are not important for gods sake!), but comeon. Hockey, Abbott, Bishop, Abetz, Joyce, Mirabella... I mean seriously guys... they are all a joke! If they did not have the support of the media, they would be crucified! Look at how the LNP fared under Turnbull! Joyce for example was ridiculed and made to look a fool... now... he is made out to be some peoples warrior with all the answers.

What about the Mining and resources tax? Apparently it was going to destroy the industry and everyone's Super... this did not happen. In fact the companies recorded record profits and now the LNP claim it wasn't strong enough? I am annoyed we didn't tax them harder! It is an absolute crime the small taxes they were paying to rape our lands of its resources!

Lucky for the LNP we live in the land of those with short memories and those who are... well, simply dumb!

I am **not** referring to people being dumb if they do not support the Carbon Tax btw or anyone who supports the LNP. Just want to clarify that. I am talking in generalities. eg. Australia's fear of refugees, while the worlds largest Duopoly force Australians to pay what they want us to pay for nearly everything!

*sigh* Now i am rambling...

Meh... i am leaving this thread... Bye bye all.

Nice to see some solid arguments though... probably one of the few political threads I have seen online not spiral out control... this thing is like 1400 posts strong! This forum and it's community rocks! :righton:

 

[hammertime]

haha, love the post Kaiser! Wow. Got a few points across there mate.

I agree about the scare mongering. It's ridiculous tactics and abbott should be ashamed of himself. We really do have a lesser of two evils situation. At the moment, I lean towards liberal. Simply because they are about smaller government, so smaller damage.

I've said this many times, but I just hope that Turnbull gets in. The only bloke on either side of the fence that is worth voting for.

I still think the ETS has flaws, specifically the timing and the wealth distribution. But it does need to be done. I think the anger is mostly caused because of Gillards unpopularity. Honestly, I wish she would just sit there, break nothing else, and wait for the next election. Maybe Masterchef should get her back for a few more episodes to keep her away from Canberra….

I'm not so sure about the Carbon tax mate. Have a look at SDL, it's a Iron Ore company which holds the rights to a MASSIVE high grade deposit in Cameroon/Congo. It's just been subject to a takeover by a chinese firm, they are also building the rail and the ports. It may take a while, but China will find cheaper prices elsewhere. We have too many taxes and high pay in mining. It has reduced our competitiveness even more. Was the tax the trigger for a company doing a 100% takeover? We will never know. But I do know that in a few years time, China will be buying a portion from there and not here.

 

[Flippedy]

I actually did not know that. But I do notice how small it is compared to ours.

Because our media outlets keep that away from us… also many countries have introduced Carbon Taxes, we are not the first, not by a long shot. I am not going to get into to much, but broadcasters such as Jones, Hadley are breaching serious ethical boundaries, as are the newspapers in this country, particularly the Australian which has turned into the most bias piece of rubbish I have ever seen in my life!

While ours is larger, we have the economy to implement a tougher one. Also, the Indian Carbon Tax impacts their top 550 companies, whereas ours impacts our top 500\. We also have a considerable amount of compensation, both for business and the 'tax payers'; they do not. I would say we are positioned much better than those in India are.

I am also keen to see what China will introduce next year.

The fear around this tax is unwarranted because the facts do not get through. I am not saying everyone should support it or the Labor party (I could careless for Gillard); as with all taxes, it is always going to split opinion and the crime is that there has been no attempt by those who oppose the tax, including the LNP to properly attack it, nor suggest an actual alternative. I watched yesterday as Abbott used the the word 'socialism' when talking about the tax... this is a perfect example!

The claims this will destroy our economy and put everyone out of a job are absolutely ludicrous. The LNP _COULD_ have argued the facts, they could have attack aspects of the tax, instead they choose to scare everyone because it's easier to do and they have the support of those in the media.

The shadow cabinet are clueless (anyone who seriously thinks Hockey would be a smart fit for Treasurer is absolutely retarded, sorry to be blunt, but he thinks the views of economists are not important for gods sake!), but comeon. Hockey, Abbott, Bishop, Abetz, Joyce, Mirabella... I mean seriously guys... they are all a joke! If they did not have the support of the media, they would be crucified! Look at how the LNP fared under Turnbull! Joyce for example was ridiculed and made to look a fool... now... he is made out to be some peoples warrior with all the answers.

What about the Mining and resources tax? Apparently it was going to destroy the industry and everyone's Super... this did not happen. In fact the companies recorded record profits and now the LNP claim it wasn't strong enough? I am annoyed we didn't tax them harder! It is an absolute crime the small taxes they were paying to rape our lands of its resources!

Lucky for the LNP we live in the land of those with short memories and those who are... well, simply dumb!

I am **not** referring to people being dumb if they do not support the Carbon Tax btw or anyone who supports the LNP. Just want to clarify that. I am talking in generalities. eg. Australia's fear of refugees, while the worlds largest Duopoly force Australians to pay what they want us to pay for nearly everything!

*sigh* Now i am rambling...

Meh... i am leaving this thread... Bye bye all.

Nice to see some solid arguments though... probably one of the few political threads I have seen online not spiral out control... this thing is like 1400 posts strong! This forum and it's community rocks! :righton:

Wonderful post, Kaiser! So bloody true, especially the bit about the media bias - makes me sick to the stomach the way they go on.

 

[Original_Magpie]

Howard invaded Iraq with out the consent of Australia and thats all well and good

Gillard introduces a carbon tax and its the end of democracy

 

[hammertime]

Howard invaded Iraq with out the consent of Australia and thats all well and good

Gillard introduces a carbon tax and its the end of democracy

Come on OM, drawing a long bow there… Plus, I'm pretty sure the majority supported action in Iraq at first with the supposed WMD were there.

One is a decision was made in government because of an event.
The other is a decision that was the opposite of what someone said only a year ago, in order to get Democratically elected.

People based their vote on no ETS, that's why it's a bit of a joke on democracy.

 

[happy_tiger]

Good news all Even if we haven't picked a winner in the Melbourne Cup Interest rates just dropped .25% by RBA

 

[Yossarian]

Excellent news!

 

[happy_tiger]

Don't know if any watches Q and A on the ABC on Monday but they had Jessica Rudd on last night Kevin's Daughter
Very intelligent young author and very beautiful young lady to boot

 

[hammertime]

Don't know if any watches Q and A on the ABC on Monday but they had Jessica Rudd on last night Kevin's Daughter
Very intelligent young author and very beautiful young lady to boot

Good tip mate. Will check it out on iView tonight.

 

[Kul]

The liberal economic rationale that the Coalition swears blind to says that at the end of the day you should pay for what you use and ultimately nothing should be free. This will eventually lead to the decline of the welfare state and it is a fundamental principle of capitalist free-market thinking. Economics 101

Today's passing of a price on Carbon means there will no longer be a way for cheapskates to rob the taxpayer of their share of the low CO2 atmosphere; now they will have to pay for what they use.

So it's ironic that the Coalition is so opposed to something that resonates so deeply with their fundamental beliefes and value sets. I won't argue that a tax is better than an ETS as it isn't, but today is a step in the right direction.

 

[hammertime]

The liberal economic rationale that the Coalition swears blind to says that at the end of the day you should pay for what you use and ultimately nothing should be free. This will eventually lead to the decline of the welfare state and it is a fundamental principal of capitalist free-market thinking. Economics 101

Today's passing of a price on Carbon means there will no longer be a way for cheapskates to rob the taxpayer of their share of the low CO2 atmosphere; now they will have to pay for what they use.

So it's ironic that the Coalition is so opposed to something that resonates so deeply with their fundamental beliefes and value sets. I won't argue that a tax is better than an ETS as it isn't, but today is a step in the right direction.

I agree Kul. It's the best mechanism we have to lower carbon emissions. The liberal party need to remove Tony Abbott and install Turnbull. He is a bloke who does what is right and in line with liberal thinking, not the Abbott mentality of just doing the opposite of Gillard.

The Labor scheme is flawed. But only with the timing during a ongoing GFC and the wealth distribution component. But overall, it's the right way to go.

 

[AndTheKungFoSing]

The liberal economic rationale that the Coalition swears blind to says that at the end of the day you should pay for what you use and ultimately nothing should be free. This will eventually lead to the decline of the welfare state and it is a fundamental principal of capitalist free-market thinking. Economics 101

Today's passing of a price on Carbon means there will no longer be a way for cheapskates to rob the taxpayer of their share of the low CO2 atmosphere; now they will have to pay for what they use.

So it's ironic that the Coalition is so opposed to something that resonates so deeply with their fundamental beliefes and value sets. I won't argue that a tax is better than an ETS as it isn't, but today is a step in the right direction.

Nice post dude… well said.

 

[Blackpearl]

The liberal economic rationale that the Coalition swears blind to says that at the end of the day you should pay for what you use and ultimately nothing should be free. This will eventually lead to the decline of the welfare state and it is a fundamental principal of capitalist free-market thinking. Economics 101

Today's passing of a price on Carbon means there will no longer be a way for cheapskates to rob the taxpayer of their share of the low CO2 atmosphere; now they will have to pay for what they use.

So it's ironic that the Coalition is so opposed to something that resonates so deeply with their fundamental beliefes and value sets. I won't argue that a tax is better than an ETS as it isn't, but today is a step in the right direction.

Nice post dude… well said.

agreed kaiser, well said kul ! it would not surprise in the slightest to see mr rabbit replaced by turnbull before the next election. i think the oz public are starting to really get over the constant negativity, fed by gloria and his cronies, which is the hallmark of abbott and joyce in particular. a turnbull led conservative coalition would be a greater threat to labor without doubt. ultimately time will tell though.