Politics Super Thread - keep it all in here

[Cultured_Bogan]

I do not see a major problem with this policy Happy, your mate will get a TPV which entitles him to:
- The right to work and have access to job matching by Centrelink
- Special Benefit,
- Rent Assistance,
- Family Tax Benefit,
- Child Care Benefit,
- Medicare,
- Early Health Assessment and Intervention Program,
- Torture and trauma counselling,
- English as a Second Language classes.

I fail to see how they are being treated as 'second class citizens'.

"STOP THE BOATS" is a simplistic slogan but if you look behind the rhetoric, there are 4 underlying issues that desperately need adressing and action:
1) The loss of human life due to these boats overturning and people drowning out at sea.
2) The people smugglers are organised crime and at the moment are helping to dictate who enters this country.
3) Our Navy and coast gaurd agencies are being run off their feet keeping up with the arrivals. This is costing us billions.
4) The fact that the 'boaties' are attempting to sneak into the country is very concerning. We have legitimate channells set aside for genuine applicants who are running from terrible situations. They are being held back because those with money are jumping the queue.

There is no doubt that we should help those less fortunate and allow them to live a better life. However when you have people sneaking in after destroying their papers - well we have no idea who they are.
Are they genuine?
Are they involved with organised crime and are sent here to establish new chapters?
Are they criminals running from the law?
Are they a part of terrorist cells?

Come in the front door and we will help you. Sneak in and you'll end up worse off for your troubles.

As for your final anecdote, I suspect that if that ever eventuates, the greater majority of countries would help us but we would have to abide by their specific policies and rightly so.

It is obvious that you care about helping people less fortunate, however Tony Abbot's portrayal of Boat People as 'illegal' creates a sense of fear and racism - not everyone who supports the policy is as open minded and supportive of those less fortunate than them. Look at the Cronulla Riots, they were started because Australians believed that they were superior to other races - the only ones that deserved to be here. The portrayal of these people as illegal just creates a public mindset in which White Australians believe they're the only ones deserving of this country. These people are treated a second class citizens by our people AND our government. Boat people have not once been terrorists attempting to attack Australia, and I'm sure that many of them would take the official passages were they available but not every immigrant has that opportunity.
There's no doubt in anyone's minds that the boats need to stop - people are drowning and it's unacceptable. But creating a sense of fear and exclusion towards migrants is not the way to go. We need to be offering more support to them in their attempts to arrive in Australia rather than turning them away. Which is what Abbott and co. Don't appear to want to do.
And we can house more migrants - countries in northern Africa (Tunisia possibly? I a not great at geography) take more migrants than us and they have a far more unstable economy and greater percentage of people under the poverty line.

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In every country you have protectionist, racist elements who want to close borders and marginalise minorities, this happens everywhere and not just in Australia. I think you'd probably find most Australians (read: not just European Australians,) have no issue with immigration largely as we're all more or less sons and daughters of immigrants. Not all of us listen to Alan Jones and Ray Hadley.

Personally I support "stop the boats" policies for reasons already mentioned by Stryker, and I hate the publicity that boat people get as they only make up a small fraction of the "illegal" immigration in this country (the true illegal immigrants come by plane holiday or working visa and just don't go home,) and those people seem to cop the brunt of the vilification. It's reprehensible that people can profit off the back of misery and suffering and not even guarantee safe passage here. The plight of these people is tragic when they aren't even assured of making it here alive. If that's not desperation I don't know what is…

 

[stryker]

It is obvious that you care about helping people less fortunate, however Tony Abbot's portrayal of Boat People as 'illegal' creates a sense of fear and racism - not everyone who supports the policy is as open minded and supportive of those less fortunate than them. **Look at the Cronulla Riots, they were started because Australians believed that they were superior to other races** - the only ones that deserved to be here. The portrayal of these people as illegal just creates a public mindset in which White Australians believe they're the only ones deserving of this country. These people are treated a second class citizens by our people AND our government. **Boat people have not once been terrorists attempting to attack Australia**, and I'm sure that many of them would take the official passages were they available but not every immigrant has that opportunity.
There's no doubt in anyone's minds that the boats need to stop - people are drowning and it's unacceptable. But creating a sense of fear and exclusion towards migrants is not the way to go. We need to be offering more support to them in their attempts to arrive in Australia rather than turning them away. Which is what Abbott and co. Don't appear to want to do.
And we can house more migrants - countries in northern Africa (Tunisia possibly? I a not great at geography) take more migrants than us and they have a far more unstable economy and greater percentage of people under the poverty line.

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Just a couple of points wtigers,
1) I dont believe that the Cronulla riots happened purely because of racism or that white Australians thought they were superior to others. My take on them was that it was an organised protest to show the gangs of the area that their attitudes were not going to be tollerated. There had been a few incidents where these arab groups were victimising Australians through their own racism and events culminated when a surf life gaurd was bashed on the beach for coming to the aid of women who were under attack. I was pleased that Ozzy's were standing up against this crap….however, as with any mob of any nationality or religion, when alochol is a part of the gathering and certain racist leaders whip up the throng, sh!t goes south. That was the true shame because the idea was correct if you ask me.

2) Whilst it is true that no terrorist attacks have come from the boats, there have been Tamil Tiger members weeded out amongst them so far and for mine I would rather we tread the path of caution in this area.

3) We take in a lot of immigrants each year. The problem arises because these particular groups are being smuggled and we just have no idea why. There are certainly many genuine asylum seekers amongst them however we can not take the chance that either, a) there are terrible people amongst them and b) the good ones arent being ripped off and sent to their deaths in a boat you wouldnt take out on a lake fishing in. We must stop these people smugglers thinking that we are an easy target because what they are doing is pure evil and everyone suffers because of it.

4) Yes there is a hint of racism to the policy and the reactions of many, however every person who supports the policies does not fit into this category. The PC brigade are not open to this fact and if you say you agree with even part of these rationals you are instantly branded as such.

We are all human and deep down all believe in the right to life. Allowing these organised crime syndicates to win through smuggling is not helping anyone....except of cause for those criminals.

 

[Chadman_s_Ghost]

While this is a very reasonable argument about 'illegal immigrants', I think the biggest problem with Abbott's "Stop The Boats" campaign is simply that those opposing the Liberals, and to some extent the media, are blurring the lines between illegal immigrants, asylum seekers, immigrants & 'boat people'.

Not all illegal immigrants are boat people, not all boat people are asylum seekers, not all asylum seekers are boat people etc, etc.

This is probably a negative for the Coalition because they seem particularly poor at getting their messege across about who they want to let in, and who they don't.
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Personally, I believe greater border protection is a good thing. But that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't accept any immigrants. Or asylum seekers. But the system needs significant improvement, because as it is right now, if you can get on a boat, you can get into the country- bypassing those asylum seekers/immigrants etc that actually follow the Australian laws in relation to geting citizenship.

 

[Chadman_s_Ghost]

Also, while I can understand that a lot of people don't want Tony Abbott as PM, I do find the demonisation of him a little unfair.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where our information intake is reliant on the media passing that information to us. And the media is reliant on telling us a story interesting enough to make you want to buy or subscribe to that particular media outlet.

So if a story isn't quite interesting enough, if it doesn't show someone making a monumental statement, or catastrophic gaffe, it's not as effective as it needs to be to attract the consumer- us.
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So what I believe we are fed by the media is only the very best, or very worst of our political parties & their policies.

And while some people will be able to see through that, and construct an unbiased opinion based on the genuine information being passed on, a significant amount of other people are going to see Tony Abbott say a candidate has sex appeal, or watch him kiss the back of the head of a mother in an awkward media moment, and be able to add that to Gillard's "he's a mysoginist" & assume it's all fact.
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That's my long-winded way of saying that the media influences politics way too much…

 

[Yossarian]

While this is a very reasonable argument about 'illegal immigrants', I think the biggest problem with Abbott's "Stop The Boats" campaign is simply that those opposing the Liberals, and to some extent the media, are blurring the lines between illegal immigrants, asylum seekers, immigrants & 'boat people'.

Not all illegal immigrants are boat people, not all boat people are asylum seekers, not all asylum seekers are boat people etc, etc.

This is probably a negative for the Coalition because they seem particularly poor at getting their messege across about who they want to let in, and who they don't.
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Personally, I believe greater border protection is a good thing. But that doesn't mean I think we shouldn't accept any immigrants. Or asylum seekers. But the system needs significant improvement, because as it is right now, if you can get on a boat, you can get into the country- bypassing those asylum seekers/immigrants etc that actually follow the Australian laws in relation to geting citizenship.

Actually the vast majority of asylum seekers are onshore applicants. The biggest issue with this new "policy" is the reliance on TPVs. Realistically things aren't going to improve for say a Hazara in Afghanistan or a Christian in Iraq. To subject these people to TPV after TPV seems cruel to me.

It seems to me that a reasonably strong policy could have easily been developed that both parties should be happy with that focused on the issue. Instead the public are subjected to an unedifying spectacle where parties are more interested in the other sides policy and where some people who have been through hell are demonised as some sort of enemy. For the record I do believe everything should be done to stop people getting on boats but from the perspective that it is inherently dangerous and asylum shouldn't be some macarbe test of endurance.

 

[Yossarian]

4) The fact that the 'boaties' are attempting to sneak into the country is very concerning. We have legitimate channells set aside for genuine applicants who are running from terrible situations. They are being held back because those with money are jumping the queue.

There is no doubt that we should help those less fortunate and allow them to live a better life. However when you have people sneaking in after destroying their papers - well we have no idea who they are.
Are they genuine?
Are they involved with organised crime and are sent here to establish new chapters?
Are they criminals running from the law?
Are they a part of terrorist cells?

Come in the front door and we will help you. Sneak in and you'll end up worse off for your troubles.

Where do you suppose Hazaras would lodge an application for asylum?

Do you really think people in organised crime or terrorists would put themselves on a boat and then wait years to be processed? They'd arrive by plane like nearly every most asylum seekers.

 

[diedpretty]

I will be voting informal this time around - the Ray Hadley/Alan Jones smear campaign wiped out the only decent candidate in this area. Thanks Ray - you @#%&

I wouldnt call Oakeshott decent mate. He basically went against everything that got him elected in the first place to become a Labor stooge for the whole term of government. Then when it became obvious that he would lose his seat of power come September he has taken his bat and ball and gone home.

He may have got up peoples noses by the way he voted on certain issues in parliament but as a representative of this area he was first class. The Mid Nort Coast has rarely received as much funding and boosts to infrastructure and local economies as it has under Oakeshott - now we will be back to being a safe National party seat we can kiss goodbye any further advancement in this area. However the only saving grace and one that might favour this area is that David Gillespie and Tony Abbott are as close as two guys can get without upsetting Tony's homophobic values.

 

[Tiger_Watto]

Hahaha… Kevin 'Never Shuts Up' Sept 7 is behind the polls in his own seat of Griffith.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/22/kevin-rudd-trails-seat-griffith-poll

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[Winnipeg]

It shows how far politics has fallen in this country, that someone is effectively allowed to tell the Prime Minister of Australia to 'shut up' on TV and nobody bats an eyelid.

This comes after the previous Prime Minister had sandwiches thrown at her.

as for Rudd losing Griffith, I think he is still ahead with the bookies, but it probably won't matter, he's likely to quit if Labor loses, which also looks likely.

 

[Flippedy]

It shows how far politics has fallen in this country, that someone is effectively allowed to tell the Prime Minister of Australia to 'shut up' on TV and nobody bats an eyelid.

This comes after the previous Prime Minister had sandwiches thrown at her.

as for Rudd losing Griffith, I think he is still ahead with the bookies, but it probably won't matter, he's likely to quit if Labor loses, which also looks likely.

Not just politics, but media and society, in general, have all fallen to record lows I reckon, Winnipeg. Thus, enabling this sort of blatant disrespect to happen.

 

[stryker]

I agree.

I did not like Abbots call here. All he has done is give Labor plenty of ammo to continue their personal attack on him. I have heard commentators say it appeard to be a scripted response that he mis-timed….I dont care. Rudd is the PM and that position deserves more respect than to be told to shut up during a debate. I also dont care that he thinks one of his candidates is a good sort, nor that he is on a radio programme fawning over an idiot popstar. It is totally irrelevant and is the sort of pandering that we got from Kevin 07.

If Abbott wants the top job he must cut out these stupid games and just release and promote policies and promote his team...which is decent enough to get the job done.

 

[Rambo2714]

I will be voting informal this time around - the Ray Hadley/Alan Jones smear campaign wiped out the only decent candidate in this area. Thanks Ray - you @#%&

I wouldnt call Oakeshott decent mate. He basically went against everything that got him elected in the first place to become a Labor stooge for the whole term of government. Then when it became obvious that he would lose his seat of power come September he has taken his bat and ball and gone home.

He may have got up peoples noses by the way he voted on certain issues in parliament but as a representative of this area he was first class. The Mid Nort Coast has rarely received as much funding and boosts to infrastructure and local economies as it has under Oakeshott - now we will be back to being a safe National party seat we can kiss goodbye any further advancement in this area. However the only saving grace and one that might favour this area is that David Gillespie and Tony Abbott are as close as two guys can get without upsetting Tony's homophobic values.

If you want " funding and boosts to infrastructure and local economies "
You should support labour , they will cough up the dough . The libs will wait for Clive Palmer to build it

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[Winnipeg]

I agree.

I did not like Abbots call here. All he has done is give Labor plenty of ammo to continue their personal attack on him. I have heard commentators say it appeard to be a scripted response that he mis-timed….I dont care. Rudd is the PM and that position deserves more respect than to be told to shut up during a debate. I also dont care that he thinks one of his candidates is a good sort, nor that he is on a radio programme fawning over an idiot popstar. It is totally irrelevant and is the sort of pandering that we got from Kevin 07.

If Abbott wants the top job he must cut out these stupid games and just release and promote policies and promote his team...which is decent enough to get the job done.

You're right

He is playing the same game as Kevin 07 did… Just let the public see you are a good guy, release very little in the way of policy that can be scrutinised, and let the faults of your opponents work against them.

But I don't think even Abbott could mess it up from here, aside from maybe if he punched Rudd in the face at the next debate :smiley:

 

[Tiger_Watto]

I agree.

I did not like Abbots call here. All he has done is give Labor plenty of ammo to continue their personal attack on him. I have heard commentators say it appeard to be a scripted response that he mis-timed….I dont care. Rudd is the PM and that position deserves more respect than to be told to shut up during a debate. I also dont care that he thinks one of his candidates is a good sort, nor that he is on a radio programme fawning over an idiot popstar. It is totally irrelevant and is the sort of pandering that we got from Kevin 07.

If Abbott wants the top job he must cut out these stupid games and just release and promote policies and promote his team...which is decent enough to get the job done.

You're right

He is playing the same game as Kevin 07 did… Just let the public see you are a good guy, release very little in the way of policy that can be scrutinised, and let the faults of your opponents work against them.

But I don't think even Abbott could mess it up from here, aside from maybe if he punched Rudd in the face at the next debate :smiley:

He'd get more votes if he give Kevin a clip across the head!

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[Winnipeg]

Why we should not trust tony Abbott

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-we-should-not-trust-tony-abbott-20130826-2sm4q.html

 

[happy_tiger]

It shows how far politics has fallen in this country, that someone is effectively allowed to tell the Prime Minister of Australia to 'shut up' on TV and nobody bats an eyelid.

This comes after the previous Prime Minister had sandwiches thrown at her.

as for Rudd losing Griffith, I think he is still ahead with the bookies, but it probably won't matter, he's likely to quit if Labor loses, which also looks likely.

Rudd won't lose Griffith and Beattie will win Forde

As for any other Labour candidates in Qld apart from these two they will struggle Chris Trevor in my seat is probably a chance ,even as typical Coalition voter I'm torn still whether I will vote for him or not

 

[Winnipeg]

So,

a day and a half now until 'the adults are back in control'

or, a better way of putting it, Tony Abbott is finally rewarded for his half decade of lying and sooking like a little girl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ckcH0Wrmy74

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

Excellent. I'm looking forward to the decimation of an already underfunded health system.

 

[Blake93]

How has Abbott gotten so far in Australian politics that he's about to become the leader of the country?

He's a homophobe and a misogynist.

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[dazza65]

How has Abbott gotten so far in Australian politics that he's about to become the leader of the country?

He's a homophobe and a misogynist.

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Because those two supposed flaws in his character mean he cant successfully run the country. Look at any successful business or
Country and more often than not the leader/president/ceo is an utter bastard/racist/homophobe/misogynist/power hungry/asshole

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