Semi Finals Draw - Mcyntire System - Super Thread

@innsaneink said:
I often wonder if the NRLs refusal to adopt the AFLs finals system is they dont want to be seen as following them.
The AFL used the macintyre system and dumped it in favour of their current one.
Macintyre sucks big time

And the NRL used the one they used and dumped it for the McIntyre. I have no idea why they made the change and I am curious to know (can anyone help me out?) to see if the apparent issues are eliminated by the McIntyre system.

I think you nailed it though, they don't want us to think we're copying them or vice versa. I think when an alternate 8 team final system comes out that is passable, they'll adopt that instead.
 
@Marshall_magic said:
@innsaneink said:
I often wonder if the NRLs refusal to adopt the AFLs finals system is they dont want to be seen as following them.
The AFL used the macintyre system and dumped it in favour of their current one.
Macintyre sucks big time

And the NRL used the one they used and dumped it for the McIntyre. I have no idea why they made the change and I am curious to know (can anyone help me out?) to see if the apparent issues are eliminated by the McIntyre system.

I think you nailed it though, they don't want us to think we're copying them or vice versa. I think when an alternate 8 team final system comes out that is passable, they'll adopt that instead.

The counter argument (and I'm not saying I agree with it) is that the AFL version gives the bottom 4 (5-8) next to no chance of making the GF. The records would seem to back this as no team from 5th-8th has made a GF and I think only a couple have made the GF qualifying round.

Personally I think this is more a manifestation of the unevenness of the AFL - the top few teams are nearly always far superior to the rest of the competition. I suspect the real reason is more in line with Innsaneink's comments.
 
@happy tiger said:
Personally I think the rewards should only go to the top 2 sides
If we went back to top 5 for example 4th gets you sudden death
The one thing I agree with Gus Gould on
Teams get rewarded for mediocrity in a top 8
I still think we could play everyone twice if we got rid of trials and finals and have an EPL finish where top team is top team
I also like the relegation idea but it would be very hard to bring a team up and have it competitive within 12 months
Maybe if we had a draft ….......

I cant agree with everything from I agree with Gus (maybe my anti gould sub concious kicks in)

I think top 8 is necessary to keep interest and revenue up for longer, in a top 5 there are too many teams out of contention too early, too many dud games for TV and Crowds, dont think it is financially viable.

I used to think that first past the post was fair and an ok way to finish a comp, the best team over home and away wins, sounds good. But I was playing rugby in the UK and we won a comp under the first past the post method, and we secured the win after a loss!! With 3 games to go, we had to lose all 3 and another have to win all 3, we lost but so did the second place team. It was rubbish! I hated it, we kind of did not know what do, in fact at no point did we celebrate winning the comp. The first past the post robs the fans of the finals, last week was so exciting for me, and this week as well. It is the best part of the season and anything that took away from that excitement would detract from the game.

The relegation system only works if you have sufficient professional teams with fans that would follow regardless of where they played, we dont have that in Australia. Our code is not big enough to support to compeitions of professional players, and soon as amateurs play professionals it is no good.
 
@Yossarian said:
@Marshall_magic said:
@innsaneink said:
I often wonder if the NRLs refusal to adopt the AFLs finals system is they dont want to be seen as following them.
The AFL used the macintyre system and dumped it in favour of their current one.
Macintyre sucks big time

And the NRL used the one they used and dumped it for the McIntyre. I have no idea why they made the change and I am curious to know (can anyone help me out?) to see if the apparent issues are eliminated by the McIntyre system.

I think you nailed it though, they don't want us to think we're copying them or vice versa. I think when an alternate 8 team final system comes out that is passable, they'll adopt that instead.

The counter argument (and I'm not saying I agree with it) is that the AFL version gives the bottom 4 (5-8) next to no chance of making the GF. The records would seem to back this as no team from 5th-8th has made a GF and I think only a couple have made the GF qualifying round.

Personally I think this is more a manifestation of the unevenness of the AFL - the top few teams are nearly always far superior to the rest of the competition. I suspect the real reason is more in line with Innsaneink's comments.

Fair enough, although in 1998 when we ran a top 10, we used an extended version of the AFL system, and the Dogs made the grand final from 8th or 9th (elimination all the way). The McIntyre does however, favour the top team, only 3 times since we adopted it has the minor premiers missed the grand final (Cronulla in 1999, Parra in 2005, St George in 2009), and only St George has failed to make the prelims. I believe since the AFL adopted that system, no team outside the top 4 has made the grand final, since we've adopted the McIntyre we've seen Dragons (1999, 6th), Cowboys (2005, 5th), Parra (2009, 8th) and Roosters (2010, 6th) make it to the grand final from outside the top 4.

The main problem I have with the AFL system, is with our tough game, it can be hard to back up against a tough side. If we used that system this year, we'd probably be playing the Dragons this weekend, backing up from playing the Storm (who are physical, like most minor premiers, meaning we'd be pretty beaten up) whereas the Dragons would be backing up from playing the Knights who don't come close to the Storm in terms of aggression.
 
@Marshall_magic said:
@Yossarian said:
@Marshall_magic said:
@innsaneink said:
I often wonder if the NRLs refusal to adopt the AFLs finals system is they dont want to be seen as following them.
The AFL used the macintyre system and dumped it in favour of their current one.
Macintyre sucks big time

And the NRL used the one they used and dumped it for the McIntyre. I have no idea why they made the change and I am curious to know (can anyone help me out?) to see if the apparent issues are eliminated by the McIntyre system.

I think you nailed it though, they don't want us to think we're copying them or vice versa. I think when an alternate 8 team final system comes out that is passable, they'll adopt that instead.

The counter argument (and I'm not saying I agree with it) is that the AFL version gives the bottom 4 (5-8) next to no chance of making the GF. The records would seem to back this as no team from 5th-8th has made a GF and I think only a couple have made the GF qualifying round.

Personally I think this is more a manifestation of the unevenness of the AFL - the top few teams are nearly always far superior to the rest of the competition. I suspect the real reason is more in line with Innsaneink's comments.

Fair enough, although in 1998 when we ran a top 10, we used an extended version of the AFL system, and the Dogs made the grand final from 8th or 9th (elimination all the way). The McIntyre does however, favour the top team, only 3 times since we adopted it has the minor premiers missed the grand final (Cronulla in 1999, Parra in 2005, St George in 2009), and only St George has failed to make the prelims. I believe since the AFL adopted that system, no team outside the top 4 has made the grand final, since we've adopted the McIntyre we've seen Dragons (1999, 6th), Cowboys (2005, 5th), Parra (2009, 8th) and Roosters (2010, 6th) make it to the grand final from outside the top 4.

The main problem I have with the AFL system, is with our tough game, it can be hard to back up against a tough side. If we used that system this year, we'd probably be playing the Dragons this weekend, backing up from playing the Storm (who are physical, like most minor premiers, meaning we'd be pretty beaten up) whereas the Dragons would be backing up from playing the Knights who don't come close to the Storm in terms of aggression.

The backing up from a tough game is a good point id never thought of.

I believe it should be tough for a side outside the top4 to win the comp, they should ahve to earn it by beating the teams above them away from home the whole way.

The top 4 need to be rewarded for their performance over 26 rounds.

I think it didn't feel right last year that the roosters made the GF. Finishing 6 and winning 1 good golden point game and 2 teams limping into the finals.
 
The Roosters earned their spot in the grand final last year I think, they ran 6th and beat 3rd, 2nd, 4th then lost to 1st. Although you said they were beating teams limping, there was only 4 sides in last years finals who had any kind of form at all (Us, Roosters, Saints and Raiders). Parra in 09, beat 1st, 3rd, 2nd then lost to 4th from 8th place.
 
@Marshall_magic said:
@Yossarian said:
@Marshall_magic said:
@innsaneink said:
I often wonder if the NRLs refusal to adopt the AFLs finals system is they dont want to be seen as following them.
The AFL used the macintyre system and dumped it in favour of their current one.
Macintyre sucks big time

And the NRL used the one they used and dumped it for the McIntyre. I have no idea why they made the change and I am curious to know (can anyone help me out?) to see if the apparent issues are eliminated by the McIntyre system.

I think you nailed it though, they don't want us to think we're copying them or vice versa. I think when an alternate 8 team final system comes out that is passable, they'll adopt that instead.

The counter argument (and I'm not saying I agree with it) is that the AFL version gives the bottom 4 (5-8) next to no chance of making the GF. The records would seem to back this as no team from 5th-8th has made a GF and I think only a couple have made the GF qualifying round.

Personally I think this is more a manifestation of the unevenness of the AFL - the top few teams are nearly always far superior to the rest of the competition. I suspect the real reason is more in line with Innsaneink's comments.

Fair enough, although in 1998 when we ran a top 10, we used an extended version of the AFL system, and the Dogs made the grand final from 8th or 9th (elimination all the way). The McIntyre does however, favour the top team, only 3 times since we adopted it has the minor premiers missed the grand final (Cronulla in 1999, Parra in 2005, St George in 2009), and only St George has failed to make the prelims. I believe since the AFL adopted that system, no team outside the top 4 has made the grand final, since we've adopted the McIntyre we've seen Dragons (1999, 6th), Cowboys (2005, 5th), Parra (2009, 8th) and Roosters (2010, 6th) make it to the grand final from outside the top 4.

The main problem I have with the AFL system, is with our tough game, it can be hard to back up against a tough side. If we used that system this year, we'd probably be playing the Dragons this weekend, backing up from playing the Storm (who are physical, like most minor premiers, meaning we'd be pretty beaten up) whereas the Dragons would be backing up from playing the Knights who don't come close to the Storm in terms of aggression.

I guess you could say that any system **should** reward the minor premier. It could also be argued that minor premiers have a good record because they're the best team, not just because of the finals system.
 
@Goose said:
@Marshall_magic said:
@Yossarian said:
@Marshall_magic said:
And the NRL used the one they used and dumped it for the McIntyre. I have no idea why they made the change and I am curious to know (can anyone help me out?) to see if the apparent issues are eliminated by the McIntyre system.

I think you nailed it though, they don't want us to think we're copying them or vice versa. I think when an alternate 8 team final system comes out that is passable, they'll adopt that instead.

The counter argument (and I'm not saying I agree with it) is that the AFL version gives the bottom 4 (5-8) next to no chance of making the GF. The records would seem to back this as no team from 5th-8th has made a GF and I think only a couple have made the GF qualifying round.

Personally I think this is more a manifestation of the unevenness of the AFL - the top few teams are nearly always far superior to the rest of the competition. I suspect the real reason is more in line with Innsaneink's comments.

Fair enough, although in 1998 when we ran a top 10, we used an extended version of the AFL system, and the Dogs made the grand final from 8th or 9th (elimination all the way). The McIntyre does however, favour the top team, only 3 times since we adopted it has the minor premiers missed the grand final (Cronulla in 1999, Parra in 2005, St George in 2009), and only St George has failed to make the prelims. I believe since the AFL adopted that system, no team outside the top 4 has made the grand final, since we've adopted the McIntyre we've seen Dragons (1999, 6th), Cowboys (2005, 5th), Parra (2009, 8th) and Roosters (2010, 6th) make it to the grand final from outside the top 4.

The main problem I have with the AFL system, is with our tough game, it can be hard to back up against a tough side. If we used that system this year, we'd probably be playing the Dragons this weekend, backing up from playing the Storm (who are physical, like most minor premiers, meaning we'd be pretty beaten up) whereas the Dragons would be backing up from playing the Knights who don't come close to the Storm in terms of aggression.

The backing up from a tough game is a good point id never thought of.

I believe it should be tough for a side outside the top4 to win the comp, they should ahve to earn it by beating the teams above them away from home the whole way.

The top 4 need to be rewarded for their performance over 26 rounds.

I think it didn't feel right last year that the roosters made the GF. Finishing 6 and winning 1 good golden point game and 2 teams limping into the finals.

You'd prefer one of the limpers made the GF?
 
Guess not, Ive thought that to make it from 6th tho, they should be beating higher placed teams away from home.

I know we all harping on about it, I just really hate the McIntyre system. I hate the pot luck nature of other results effecting teams not involved in games, actually i hate everything about the system
 
@Goose said:
Guess not, Ive thought that to make it from 6th tho, they should be beating higher placed teams away from home.

I know we all harping on about it, I just really hate the McIntyre system. I hate the pot luck nature of other results effecting teams not involved in games, actually i hate everything about the system

Well last year their finals games were
Tigers (SFS)-our home game
Panthers (SFS)-Roosters home game, although against another Sydney team
Titans (Suncorp)
Dragons (ANZ)

Their only home game was against another Sydney team. Would've been played at the SFS if it was a Panthers home game anyway (since it wasn't a big enough draw to take to ANZ).
 
Are people serious? You feel sorry for teams who have to back up after playing a hard game? It's the finals! It's about overcoming adversity and being the best by beating the best.

You can't make concessions for teams because they had a "tough" game. Hate to break it to you but all games in the NRL, especially the finals, are tough!

The main drawback I have with the system is that a team that wins is no better off for winning.
 
@alex said:
Are people serious? You feel sorry for teams who have to back up after playing a hard game? It's the finals! It's about overcoming adversity and being the best by beating the best.

You can't make concessions for teams because they had a "tough" game. Hate to break it to you but all games in the NRL, especially the finals, are tough!

The main drawback I have with the system is that a team that wins is no better off for winning.

What they were getting at is the team coming 4th would have an away game in Melbourne while the 5th team gets a home game against the 8th team. Then the next week possibly play each other. I think they realise they are hard games but it has been raised as a downside to the AFL finals system.
 
I was just having a random look on wiki and you should have a look at the joke finals system the ARL used for 1997\. It was a top 7 and it makes the McIntyre system look genius. The system is confusing as it is but take a look in particular at Week 2 and Week 3\. Manly play Newcastle in week 2, and the result meant nothing. All it did was place the 2 teams on opposite sides of the draw for the prelim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_ARL_season

Ladder:
1 Manly 32
2 Newcastle 29
3 Parramatta 29
4 North Sydney 27
5 Eastern Suburbs 27
6 Illawarra 23
7 Gold Coast 21

Week 1
Bye: (1st) Manly
6th Illawarra vs 7th Gold Coast. Winner: Gold Coast
4th Roosters vs 5th Bears. Winner: Bears
2nd Newcastle vs 3rd Parramatta. Winner: Newcastle

Illawarra (6th) knocked out

Week 2
**1st Manly vs 2nd Newcastle. Winner: Manly**
3rd Eels vs 5th Bears. Winner: Bears
4th Roosters vs 7th Gold Coast. Winner: Roosters

Eels (3rd) and Gold Coast (7th) knocked out

Week 3
**2nd Newcastle** vs 5th Bears. Winner: Newcastle
**1st Manly** vs 4th Roosters Winner: Manly

Roosters (4th) and Bears (5th) knocked out

Week 4
Manly vs Newcastle. Winner: Newcastle
 
@Jazza said:
I was just having a random look on wiki and you should have a look at the joke finals system the ARL used for 1997\. It was a top 7 and it makes the McIntyre system look genius. The system is confusing as it is but take a look in particular at Week 2 and Week 3\. Manly play Newcastle in week 2, and the result meant nothing. All it did was place the 2 teams on opposite sides of the draw for the prelim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_ARL_season

Ladder:
1 Manly 32
2 Newcastle 29
3 Parramatta 29
4 North Sydney 27
5 Eastern Suburbs 27
6 Illawarra 23
7 Gold Coast 21

Week 1
Bye: (1st) Manly
6th Illawarra vs 7th Gold Coast. Winner: Gold Coast
4th Roosters vs 5th Bears. Winner: Bears
2nd Newcastle vs 3rd Parramatta. Winner: Newcastle

Illawarra (6th) knocked out

Week 2
**1st Manly vs 2nd Newcastle. Winner: Manly**
3rd Eels vs 5th Bears. Winner: Bears
4th Roosters vs 7th Gold Coast. Winner: Roosters

Eels (3rd) and Gold Coast (7th) knocked out

Week 3
**2nd Newcastle** vs 5th Bears. Winner: Newcastle
**1st Manly** vs 4th Roosters Winner: Manly

Roosters (4th) and Bears (5th) knocked out

Week 4
Manly vs Newcastle. Winner: Newcastle

I'm with you this is the most ridiculous system ever.

I never thought i d say this, comparatively the macintyre is wonderful….. I take back eveything I say the McIntyre in only the second worse system ever.
 
Wow that system looks stupid … Newcastle got two chances?!

Is it just me or does everyone who follows Rugby League have a problem with McIntyre EXCEPT David Gallop?! Finals time every year fans, media and coaches all say how it's a terrible system.
 
Just while we're doing comparisons with other systems, here's what the Super 15 Rugby used this year. I think it's as pointless as McIntyre …

Top 6 System -

Week 1:
1 & 2 get a bye
a) 4 V 5
b) 3 V 6

Week 2:
1 V Winner A
2 V Winner B

Week 3:
Grand Final

And for the record, the UK Super League uses the AFL System
 
@Jazza said:
I was just having a random look on wiki and you should have a look at the joke finals system the ARL used for 1997\. It was a top 7 and it makes the McIntyre system look genius. The system is confusing as it is but take a look in particular at Week 2 and Week 3\. Manly play Newcastle in week 2, and the result meant nothing. All it did was place the 2 teams on opposite sides of the draw for the prelim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_ARL_season

Ladder:
1 Manly 32
2 Newcastle 29
3 Parramatta 29
4 North Sydney 27
5 Eastern Suburbs 27
6 Illawarra 23
7 Gold Coast 21

Week 1
Bye: (1st) Manly
6th Illawarra vs 7th Gold Coast. Winner: Gold Coast
4th Roosters vs 5th Bears. Winner: Bears
2nd Newcastle vs 3rd Parramatta. Winner: Newcastle

Illawarra (6th) knocked out

Week 2
**1st Manly vs 2nd Newcastle. Winner: Manly**
3rd Eels vs 5th Bears. Winner: Bears
4th Roosters vs 7th Gold Coast. Winner: Roosters

Eels (3rd) and Gold Coast (7th) knocked out

Week 3
**2nd Newcastle** vs 5th Bears. Winner: Newcastle
**1st Manly** vs 4th Roosters Winner: Manly

Roosters (4th) and Bears (5th) knocked out

Week 4
Manly vs Newcastle. Winner: Newcastle

I'm glad you posted this. I was trying to work out in my head how the Top 7 worked and every idea I had seemed crazy! I was going to try and look it up myself sometime but this saves me doing that.
 
@alex said:
Wow that system looks stupid … Newcastle got two chances?!

Is it just me or does everyone who follows Rugby League have a problem with McIntyre EXCEPT David Gallop?! Finals time every year fans, media and coaches all say how it's a terrible system.

I don't mind so much that Newcastle got two chances (they did come 2nd) but what's the point of the Manly v Newcastle game when they both went through anyway? A slightly easier game? It's not really a huge incentive. You'd almost be tempted to rest most of your team for that game.

Crazy days…
 
Another reason why the current system sucks:

Brisbane (3rd) won their first game but must beat the Dragons (5th) to progress
Tigers (4th) won their first game but must beat the Warriors (6th) to progress

So in other words, the higher placed Brisbane must beat a higher placed team, while the lower placed Tigers only have to beat the lowly Warriors.
 

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