The "it is us, not Madge" argument...

[ElleryHanley]

I don't want to put this in the Madge thread as it involves "us" equally.

But all this "it is the Tigers / it is the players " has been a bit too much this week.

Two simple facts:

1. **In Maguire’s last 51 games in charge of a star-studded Rabbitohs side, his success rate was even worse (18 wins) than it is now at the Wests Tigers.**

Everyone needs to read that...and read it slowly...with a vet roster, tons of Origin players, his record was 18 from 51 **last two years at Souths, not us, SOUTHS** So, you can't blame "wests culture".

2. 90% of this roster is from his time with us. So, you can't just blame Tiger's players / our history.

Combined with **Souths and us**, his winning record is about mid 30s.

Those are all facts. I am not even giving an opinion here, it just facts that his record with Souths and us his past five seasons has been very poor. Not one or two seasons, five...

The game has changed a hell of a lot since 2014...and using his past 'five' years is a fair period of time to judge someone. The facts are not really debatable at **two** clubs.

People need to lay off the whole "it is the Tigers" stuff.

 

[The_Patriot]

Belongs in he Madge thread 100%

 

[ElleryHanley]

Belongs in he Madge thread 100%

Maybe, but then the "us" part gets lost.

The media have been hammering "us" all week...but the record is Souths **and** us.

I am just really tired of the whole "well, it's the Tigers" argument.

 

[BAGNF05]

Can I toss up Cleary here vs Cleary at Penrith then? It’s us mate.

We pay good dollars for the best coach available then do nothing to equip them with a strong team. We suck.

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

 

[ElleryHanley]

Can I toss up Cleary here vs Cleary at Penrith then? It’s us mate.

Cleary had a good record here though...

50% with us (first year)

46% first year back at Panthers.

 

[BAGNF05]

Can I toss up Cleary here vs Cleary at Penrith then? It’s us mate.

Cleary had a good record here though...

50% with us (first year)

46% first year back at Panthers.

Well now he’s a 99% guy

 

[ElleryHanley]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

 

[BAGNF05]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

 

[GNR4LIFE]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.

 

[earl]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

 

[ElleryHanley]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.

I was a fan when we appointed him and I think his first 12 months were good.

But, yes, I think we will improve with a new coach.

The roster + the reggies roster (2nd) combined is not that of a club that looks like it will be fighting the historically bad Dogs for the wooden spoon. We are not that bad.

 

[BAGNF05]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.

I was a fan when we appointed him and I think his first 12 months were good.

But, yes, I think we will improve with a new coach.

The roster + the reggies roster (2nd) combined is not that of a club that looks like it will be fighting the historically bad Dogs for the wooden spoon. We are not that bad.

Your second grade roster doesn’t help you win NRL games. You need first grade talent. Recruitment and retention is absolutely the problem and it starts and finishes with the board and the executives, we are a farce and a quite frankly a laughing stock.

 

[ElleryHanley]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

 

[ElleryHanley]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.

I was a fan when we appointed him and I think his first 12 months were good.

But, yes, I think we will improve with a new coach.

The roster + the reggies roster (2nd) combined is not that of a club that looks like it will be fighting the historically bad Dogs for the wooden spoon. We are not that bad.

Your second grade roster doesn’t help you win NRL games. You need first grade talent. Recruitment and retention is absolutely the problem and it starts and finishes with the board and the executives, we are a farce and a quite frankly a laughing stock.

Yes, it 'does' help you win games...you need several down there who can come in and not let you down. We have those players now, especially the pack.

 

[BAGNF05]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

The players we have are lazy or just can’t tackle, he’s on a hiding to nothing here.

 

[ElleryHanley]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

That would be valid were it within a 5 year timeframe, but it was 2014. The game has changed a lot and he had an absolutely stacked roster that year.

Michael Hagan won a comp...

 

[BAGNF05]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

That would be valid were it within a 5 year timeframe, but it was 2014. The game has changed a lot and he had an absolutely stacked roster that year.

Michael Hagan won a comp...

Also won in England. Mate with guys like BJ and Garner here we aren’t going to win, good coaches like Bellamy would laugh at coaching this roster.

 

[earl]

It's not as simple as it's all Madge or it's all the players or it's just the club. The club being the problem is just nuts because the players and the coaching staff are the guys who have to win games unless you are talking about recruitment and retention being poor which at least gives us something to fix.

We don't have a good enough team but we are also under performing. So Madge is in on that.

Honestly I don't have a huge amount of confidence in Madge when it comes to game plans and getting the players up for it but I have a fair amount of confidence in Madge/Hartigan in improving this club over the next couple of seasons.

I just think retaining Madge for the next 2 seasons isn't going to hurt the club long term and will probably help the club.

The next two years are almost the biggest in our history IMO.

We have a great, young, core and can't afford for it all to go wrong like with the last young core. Is he the right bloke to be coaching a team of kids? Name one set play he has called or a single game where you thought "he coached that well, the in game adjustments were great"....

He does not adjust...yells and screams, yes...but no in game tactics or adjustments like bench use. It is a **massive** gamble to entrust that type of coach with a young core for two more years.

We also need to get rid of some senior players and replace them with better players. I trust Madge much more over Cleary or Taylor to get that right.

I also agree that Madge's tactics don't appear to be quality. The ranting and raving to me is stupid but I doubt he is doing that all the time. It's like a temper tantrum and Bellamy does it as well.

You are correct in that it's a massive gamble trusting Madge to get this crop of players to perform over the next couple of years but so is getting any coach and Cleary or Taylor for instance would be to me more risky because I don't trust them to get rid of the right players or bring in the right players.

Sacking the coach isn't going to save us. It's why I think stick with the guy and see if he can somehow develop a good squad and get them playing well.

We aren't turning this around this season. Next season may see some improvements but only if the players coming in are a lot better than the ones we lose.

 

[The_Patriot]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

Like I said, he’s not blameless. But do you think sacking him solves all our problems? Reminds of when JT was coach, He was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to the club, and he was holding us back. He got sacked, we still lost Tedesco and things aren’t any better than when he was here.

As for Cleary, since 2011, the start of 2018 was our best period in a decade. Our defence was on another level.

Yep, should have stuck with Taylor, he might have turned it around by now. . .