The "it is us, not Madge" argument...

[steve-o]

If we get rid of Madge, who are we replacing him with? I’m not convinced there’s an improvement out there. Shane Flanagan maybe... if you can get past the peptides.

At some point we need to stop changing coaches every 2-3 years. Otherwise why would any good coach want to come here knowing they’ll likely be in the unemployment line themselves in a couple of years?

We’re still dealing with a few bad contracts - Mbye’s contract is the ultimate albatross, Packer is still collecting cheques, and Brooks is looking more and more like an overpay.

Madge needs to step up and do better with what he has, but I’m happing to give him another 18 months. If we’re still a mess by the end of 2022, by all means go get a new coach.

 

[TrueTiger]

at least Madge is trying to fix the core problem here so he can start winning games and put this club on a better platform than where it has been…

He's trying, but he's failing, because he can't man manage and he can't adapt to the modern game.

Avo I cant agree that Madge if failing completely on his own mate...let me ask you,how many stupid penalties do our guys give away during the games as well as 6 agains,forward passes.dropped balls,kicks out on the full and let opposition players offload without completing tackles etc...blame Madge all you like but some of these guys arent experienced enough or arent up to NRL standard...

 

[jirskyr]

Actually Madge at least is trying to get some wins together with this group of players,you and others may doubt his coaching ability and blame him for the way we are going this year,but have a good hard look at this teams performance week to week and then tell me Madge cant coach but the players are top level highly paid NRL stars squad....WRONG...
Inexperienced youth with talent and ability,experienced nrl players from different systems mixed with underperformance or injuries all combine to make the job a lot harder...
Madge/Hartigan have done the right thing developing the pathways and getting talented youth here that we can develop and hopefully keep,key ingrediant to solidifying a winning platform..
People have gone off the air in regard to this weeks team announcement because he has made changes that we hope lead to a winning performance,but dont suit certain people because they dont like Madge or the players selected ..
Im not in the video sessions or at training and I wouldnt have a clue what the players and Madge have worked out amongst themselves to make better use of players and positions,Madge knows the players and their ability,he also has to get the most out of the players he has available...
This club has had a rotten boys club culture that was let fester for years through poor management ..
It got Potter sacked,JT tried to get rid of the boys club and he got sacked and T Sheens always said that the players get coaches sacked...so produce stats that suit the narrative for sacking the coach but dont forget the historical record of this club ONE premiership in 21 years and a heap of SACKED coaches.....

If you ignore his Tigers record (which is awful), at Souths he won 18 of his last 51 games. That's with a team that included Inglis, Burgess brothers, Reynolds, Cook, Walker. He used to be able to coach but since 2016 he's totally lost it.

Does anyone actually ever dig into these stats? I'm a stats guy, sure, but you have to interrogate your data and try to understand what it is telling you beyond the initial appearance.

For example, Madge actually only won 18 of his last 52 games with Souths. This is comprised of 2 seasons of 9 W 15 L (12th place both times), plus a run of 4-straight losses leading into the 2015 finals campaign, where they went out first round. OK, but immediately prior to this he won 13 of the first 21 matches (62%) of 2015.

So - does a coach really, truly, forget how to coach or lose the ability to coach between Round 24 2015 and being sacked Rd 26 2017? Is that a logical argument?

Is there perhaps anything that happened in 2015 that might explain the beginning of the slide? Well, yes, that's the year Sam Burgess left to play rugby. Late 2014, after the GF win, he goes back to England. He then resurfaces in 2016... is he the same player? Ben Te'o also joins rugby at the same time.

Api Koroisau has left after 2014; there's a decline in Isaac Luke and he leaves for Warriors in 2016. Souths have signed Damien Cook but he only plays 18 games between 2016-2017 then emerges into Origin contention in 2018. BTW Cook a player identified and signed during Madge's tenure, after wallowing in reserves at Dragons and Bulldogs.

Anything else remarkable happen in 2015-2017 to explain a non-coach decline at Souths? Well Luke Keary only started 14 matches in 2016 and then signed for Roosters in 2017. Roosters finished 2nd that year and fell 1 game short of the GF, having come second-last the previous year.

2017 is also when Greg Inglis did his knee Rd 1 against Tigers and missed the rest of the season.

So you have 2015 with Burgess and Te'o gone, but Souths still make the finals, even though they are knocked out week 1. 2016 they have a bad year (9W 15L), and trying to turn things around for 2017, Luke Keary has left and Greg Inglis plays 1 match.

2018 - Cameron Murray has emerged, Cody Walker has cemented his spot, Greg Inglis is back, Angus Crichton has emerged as a key player, Damien Cook has cemented himself in Origin. Souths play finals again. Michael Maguire responsible for 100% of these signings and debuts.

Now that 2018 coach is Anthony Seibold and people reckon this guy, after serving good time as assistant coach, is the real deal. He coaches Souths to the finals, leaves after 1 year, gets Broncos to finals in 2019, then spectacularly bombs in 2020 and leaves a basketcase club trying to recover in 2021.

So amongst all that, is Anthony Seibold completely responsible for Souths playing finals in 2018? Could Madge Maguire have achieved the same thing if they had left him on, considering he would have got Inglis back, and he brought along all of the new cadre of Souths footballers - Cody Walker, Murray, Crichton, Cook, Alex Johnston?

There's so much more to it than just "18 wins out of 52". There are so many comparisons - why is it that Ivan Cleary made finals on and off during 10+ years with Warriors, Penrith and Tigers, but is almost unbeatable the last 40 rounds with Penrith? Why did Seibold have spectacular success then bomb right out? How did Wayne Bennett fail to make the finals 2/3 years at the Knights?

What about Ricky Stuart, who made the finals twice in his 9 campaigns across Sharks-Parra-Canberra, then made Raiders a legitimate title threat 2019-2020, but seems to have "lost the dressing room" completely in 2021. What about Des Hasler, who has made the finals most seasons with Dogs and Manly, but was cut by the Dogs in 2017, didn't coach in 2018, then came back in 2019 and got Manly to the finals, before having an ordinary 2020 (and 2021 still in the balance). Do Des' future fortunes have anything at all to do with the influence of 1 or 2 key players at Manly, going from laughing stock to finals contender in the space of 5 weeks?

 

[Madge]

at least Madge is trying to fix the core problem here so he can start winning games and put this club on a better platform than where it has been…

He's trying, but he's failing, because he can't man manage and he can't adapt to the modern game.

Yep, adapting to the modern game is his biggest downfall in my opinion. This is why I keep saying bring in the tactical coaches as assistants. John Morris (attack) and Dean Pay (defence) is an example. The only reason Madge hasn't been sacked yet is because of our history with coaches and the fact that you need stability in order to be successful. So at least make it work WT HQ and act proactively.

 

[jrtiger]

I'm really not sure if there's an option out there that could turn the ship around quickly. Flanagan is another Madge-type coach, made his name in the 2010s and there's certainly plenty of question marks surrounding his reputation with the ASADA dramas. Morris has a brilliant understanding of nuturing young talent and developing pathways, but we have Hartigan who has shown he is more than capable in that area.

I want Madge to work, but as Auburnon80 suggested, he's still scarred from the Seibold saga and won't hire assistants that are tactically sound and tuned into the modern game.

I genuinely believe we missed the boat with the latest batch of rookie coaches. Holbrook, Fitzgibbon and O'Brien are the new breed, and we opted for Madge. the only rookie I can think of could potentially be Jason Ryles, but chances are he ends up at Melbourne after he's done his stint with the All Blacks. very slim pickings at the moment.

 

[tiger_scott]

This is a well thought out and reasoned thread. I think I've "liked" several comments here, a first for me in a single thread. To add my 5 cents (the points made that I agree with):

We can't afford the damage to our reputation that firing another coach would do.
Madge probably does feel scarred from the Siebold white-anting, explaining why he wouldn't want a "good assistant". I hadn't thought of that before and it makes good sense.
We are moving in the right direction. We need to stay the course. It might be a case that Madge does get punted after 22 and the next guy in wins the comp, but ultimately it will be the steps taken now that move us towards that goal.
Let's go Tigers!

 

[TrueTiger]

I think a few coaches are finding it difficult to get consistency out of their teams...
Raiders looked like top contenders in 2021,some how the wheels have fallen off in regard to winning games..
Bulldogs are a work in progress ...
Broncos a work in progress...
Sharks in turmoil....
Manly are now living up to their reputation after a poor start...
Dragons very hot and cold....
Melb..Panthers ...Roosters ...are the most consistent teams atm...Souths can be but have dramas of their own to get over...
All the rest have to grind away to find that core consistency week to week,and apparently it is no easy feat....

 

[avocadoontoast]

Actually Madge at least is trying to get some wins together with this group of players,you and others may doubt his coaching ability and blame him for the way we are going this year,but have a good hard look at this teams performance week to week and then tell me Madge cant coach but the players are top level highly paid NRL stars squad....WRONG...
Inexperienced youth with talent and ability,experienced nrl players from different systems mixed with underperformance or injuries all combine to make the job a lot harder...
Madge/Hartigan have done the right thing developing the pathways and getting talented youth here that we can develop and hopefully keep,key ingrediant to solidifying a winning platform..
People have gone off the air in regard to this weeks team announcement because he has made changes that we hope lead to a winning performance,but dont suit certain people because they dont like Madge or the players selected ..
Im not in the video sessions or at training and I wouldnt have a clue what the players and Madge have worked out amongst themselves to make better use of players and positions,Madge knows the players and their ability,he also has to get the most out of the players he has available...
This club has had a rotten boys club culture that was let fester for years through poor management ..
It got Potter sacked,JT tried to get rid of the boys club and he got sacked and T Sheens always said that the players get coaches sacked...so produce stats that suit the narrative for sacking the coach but dont forget the historical record of this club ONE premiership in 21 years and a heap of SACKED coaches.....

If you ignore his Tigers record (which is awful), at Souths he won 18 of his last 51 games. That's with a team that included Inglis, Burgess brothers, Reynolds, Cook, Walker. He used to be able to coach but since 2016 he's totally lost it.

Does anyone actually ever dig into these stats? I'm a stats guy, sure, but you have to interrogate your data and try to understand what it is telling you beyond the initial appearance.

For example, Madge actually only won 18 of his last 52 games with Souths. This is comprised of 2 seasons of 9 W 15 L (12th place both times), plus a run of 4-straight losses leading into the 2015 finals campaign, where they went out first round. OK, but immediately prior to this he won 13 of the first 21 matches (62%) of 2015.

So - does a coach really, truly, forget how to coach or lose the ability to coach between Round 24 2015 and being sacked Rd 26 2017? Is that a logical argument?

Is there perhaps anything that happened in 2015 that might explain the beginning of the slide? Well, yes, that's the year Sam Burgess left to play rugby. Late 2014, after the GF win, he goes back to England. He then resurfaces in 2016... is he the same player? Ben Te'o also joins rugby at the same time.

Api Koroisau has left after 2014; there's a decline in Isaac Luke and he leaves for Warriors in 2016. Souths have signed Damien Cook but he only plays 18 games between 2016-2017 then emerges into Origin contention in 2018. BTW Cook a player identified and signed during Madge's tenure, after wallowing in reserves at Dragons and Bulldogs.

Anything else remarkable happen in 2015-2017 to explain a non-coach decline at Souths? Well Luke Keary only started 14 matches in 2016 and then signed for Roosters in 2017. Roosters finished 2nd that year and fell 1 game short of the GF, having come second-last the previous year.

2017 is also when Greg Inglis did his knee Rd 1 against Tigers and missed the rest of the season.

So you have 2015 with Burgess and Te'o gone, but Souths still make the finals, even though they are knocked out week 1. 2016 they have a bad year (9W 15L), and trying to turn things around for 2017, Luke Keary leaves and Greg Inglis plays 1 match.

2018 - Cameron Murray has emerged, Cody Walker has cemented his spot, Greg Inglis is back, Angus Crichton has emerged as a key player, Damien Cook has cemented himself in Origin. Souths play finals again. Michael Maguire responsible for 100% of these signings and debuts.

Now that 2018 coach is Anthony Seibold and people reckon this guy, after serving good time as assistant coach, is the real deal. He coaches Souths to the finals, leaves after 1 year, gets Broncos to finals in 2019, then spectacularly bombs in 2020 and leaves a basketcase club trying to recover in 2021.

So amongst all that, is Anthony Seibold completely responsible for Souths playing finals in 2018? Could Madge Maguire have achieved the same thing if they had left him on, considering he would have got Inglis back, and he brought along all of the new cadre of Souths footballers - Cody Walker, Murray, Crichton, Cook, Alex Johnston?

There's so much more to it than just "18 wins out of 52". There are so many comparisons - why is it that Ivan Cleary made finals on and off during 10+ years with Warriors, Penrith and Tigers, but is almost unbeatable the last 40 rounds with Penrith? Why did Seibold have spectacular success then bomb right out? How did Wayne Bennett fail to make the finals 2/3 years at the Knights?

What about Ricky Stuart, who made the finals twice in his 9 campaigns across Sharks-Parra-Canberra, then made Raiders a legitimate title threat 2019-2020, but seems to have "lost the dressing room" completely in 2021. What about Des Hasler, who has made the finals most seasons with Dogs and Manly, but was cut by the Dogs in 2017, didn't coach in 2018, then came back in 2019 and got Manly to the finals, before having an ordinary 2020 (and 2021 still in the balance). Do Des' future fortunes have anything at all to do with the influence of 1 or 2 key players at Manly, going from laughing stock to finals contender in the space of 5 weeks?

You've listed a lot of detail there but you seem to have brushed over 2017, so let's look at that year in a bit more detail. All Burgess brothers healthy, halves combo of Reynolds and Walker, Cook at hooker with Farah off the bench and Crichton at 2R. Sutton still a productive player. Alex Johnston at fullback

Every single one of those 10 players would be shoe ins in our current squad, yet he could only get them to 12th position on the ladder. Let's highlight a few performances which mirror our own.

Started off the season with a loss to the mighty Wests Tigers with the scarecrow at the helm, losing 34-18. next few rounds were 3 wins and 2 losses.

In round 7 they got beaten 24-9 by a Canterbury team comprising a halves combo of Moses Mbye and Josh Reynolds. In the press conference he talked about 'key moments' and 80 minute performances, which sounds familiar.

In round 9 they got beaten 46-8 vs Manly. Here's the press conference. "not what we're about" "attitude issues" "doing the right things at training". Remove Sam Burgess from the video and it could have been from the weekend.

https://www.nrl.com/tv/matches/telstra-premiership/2017/round-9/rd-9-press-conference-rabbitohs/

From there we had fairly mixed performances (moving between 12th and 14th) and then we get to the final 2 rounds

In round 25 they got beaten 64-6 against the Melbourne Storm, where he thought it would make sense to move Walker to fullback and play John Sutton at 6.

In round 26 they got beaten 22-16 by the Eels when he decided to mix things up again by playing Damien Cook at fullback.

All in all, with that team, he finished 12th and conceded on average 24 points per game. A pretty shocking performance considering the talent.

 

[Sco77y]

We must be really bad at selecting coaches.. Changing one hasn't worked in a decade. Maybe this time will be different. Not before another rebuild though, can't wait for that.

 

[happy_tiger]

The reason I have given and will continue to give Madge the benefit of the doubt is that I can see that as an organisation we are heading in the right direction. You can say this is his roster (for first grade), however, he is still dealing with and had to deal with a lot of bad contracts from the previous coach. A lot of the signings made by Madge for the first grade team have been for lower value players.

He has been forced to think outside the box in both recruiting and letting players go. I would say that even the hardest judge would have to say he has done a good job on this front. The next couple of years is where the rubber really hits the road for us. If we can move Mbye on along with Packer and a few more hand brakes I am sure we will really see the team come into its own.

I am not interested in a quick fix. We know how that ends and there is no guarantee that it works. You just need to look at the Bulldogs for that. The fact we are at two in both Flegg and KOE tell me that we are really planting the seeds for the future. The challenge now is holding onto the promising ones. Good signs on this front also with Simpkin re signing. I am running out of patience and the feelings of apathy towards this team are there and growing, however, i really believe the worst thing we could do now would be to move Madge on and put at risk all the positive work that has been done behind the scenes over the past couple of years.

We still need some top shelf signings ...even when you look at Penrith and all the talk about juniors ...they still have recruits like Koraisau , Kikau ,Capewell

I am not saying that we don't. I believe though that the situation that he has inherited has seriously effected our ability to and capacity for big name, big dollar recruits.

But that's the problem for me ....as i said in another thread recently we still probably need to recruit 4 Top 50 players before we will attract a top 5-10 player

How the hell do we do that with the current issues and performances

How did Penrith do it? They had clear pathways in place from Matts, Ball, Flegg (20's) and invested heavily here. A well publicised plan to make them a powerhouse. It took time but they were then able to sell the vision to the 10-50 players that we just need some experience and maturity around these young guys to take the team to the next level. Who in the current Penrith team is even a top 50 recruit? I would argue there is not one of them. Kikau was a Cowboys junior who came to them highly rated but with no first grade experience, Koroisau came back to them after a stint away. Capable but I don't think would have been in anyone's top 3 in the position at the time. And Capewell is capable but certainly wasn't top 50 when he signed.

Koroisau turned their club around ......and whether people like it or not became who he was at Manly

Capewell wasn't getting a chance at the Sharks and when you win MOTM awards at SOO level your the real deal

And Kikau .....I've seen 5 blokes I was convinced would be superstars from Under 20's ...he was one of them ...and seeing 3 of the other 4 were Cleary ,Tedesco , Ponga ...enough said

 

[Newtown]

Can I toss up Cleary here vs Cleary at Penrith then? It’s us mate.

We pay good dollars for the best coach available then do nothing to equip them with a strong team. We suck.

We suck because a at least five years ago our CAP space sucked. This huge problem was later exacerbated when Cleary brought a very high priced overpriced no- hoper prop (Packer), a high priced injury prone five eight (Reynolds) and a very high priced all rounder (MBye).

These problems really do go back to our past administrations and slighty more to our current coach who also recruited new players some of whom, based on this season's results so far, appear to be costly duds.

The club has to call an urgent war cabinet (sans Lee H) as soon as possible to decide what course of action the club needs to carry out within our CAP space availability to get out of this embarassing mess.
I would Lee H to be out of this discussion because he has shown himself to be a big mouth club failure as shown in his discussions with Mitchell and Addo-Carr.

 

[happy_tiger]

I think a few coaches are finding it difficult to get consistency out of their teams...
Raiders looked like top contenders in 2021,some how the wheels have fallen off in regard to winning games..
Bulldogs are a work in progress ...
Broncos a work in progress...
Sharks in turmoil....
Manly are now living up to their reputation after a poor start...
Dragons very hot and cold....
Melb..Panthers ...Roosters ...are the most consistent teams atm...Souths can be but have dramas of their own to get over...
All the rest have to grind away to find that core consistency week to week,and apparently it is no easy feat....

There is just such a vast gap between teams 6-7 to 16th

And it justs gets wider

 

[851]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

So, we just ignore Madge's 30 odd % record with half a team of Origin players and Ints his last two years?

We don't think maybe the game has passed him by looking at us **and** souths.

Same roster at Souths won almost 20% more games the year after left.

You’re ignoring his premiership

No he is not, he is saying Madge still thinks the game is the same as 2014 when he won, he is sticking to that formula, when the game has changed a heap, and that formula is clearly outdated and not working.
He is saying Madge was a good coach, won a premiership, but the game has gone past him, same as Benji, he won a premiership, the game is now past him too

 

[2005magic]

Now might be a good time, if any such thing existed as 'a good time' for Maguire to go- either voluntarily or sacked via agreed KPI's.

* we have a good number of players coming off contract at end of season- allowing a new coach early opportunity to atleast try to get their players to replace departing players.
* we have a good amount of cap space to play with.
* decisions need to be made on several players in key positions and it would only be fair for a new coach to make that decision.
* the path forward has been developed and implemented by Hartigan and Maguire, a new coach would be employed under the conditions they continue on that path without major restructure.
* there are several options out there to replace Maguire, we wait and they could be gone.

 

[851]

Actually Madge at least is trying to get some wins together with this group of players,you and others may doubt his coaching ability and blame him for the way we are going this year,but have a good hard look at this teams performance week to week and then tell me Madge cant coach but the players are top level highly paid NRL stars squad....WRONG...
Inexperienced youth with talent and ability,experienced nrl players from different systems mixed with underperformance or injuries all combine to make the job a lot harder...
Madge/Hartigan have done the right thing developing the pathways and getting talented youth here that we can develop and hopefully keep,key ingrediant to solidifying a winning platform..
People have gone off the air in regard to this weeks team announcement because he has made changes that we hope lead to a winning performance,but dont suit certain people because they dont like Madge or the players selected ..
Im not in the video sessions or at training and I wouldnt have a clue what the players and Madge have worked out amongst themselves to make better use of players and positions,Madge knows the players and their ability,he also has to get the most out of the players he has available...
This club has had a rotten boys club culture that was let fester for years through poor management ..
It got Potter sacked,JT tried to get rid of the boys club and he got sacked and T Sheens always said that the players get coaches sacked...so produce stats that suit the narrative for sacking the coach but dont forget the historical record of this club ONE premiership in 21 years and a heap of SACKED coaches.....

If you ignore his Tigers record (which is awful), at Souths he won 18 of his last 51 games. That's with a team that included Inglis, Burgess brothers, Reynolds, Cook, Walker. He used to be able to coach but since 2016 he's totally lost it.

Does anyone actually ever dig into these stats? I'm a stats guy, sure, but you have to interrogate your data and try to understand what it is telling you beyond the initial appearance.

For example, Madge actually only won 18 of his last 52 games with Souths. This is comprised of 2 seasons of 9 W 15 L (12th place both times), plus a run of 4-straight losses leading into the 2015 finals campaign, where they went out first round. OK, but immediately prior to this he won 13 of the first 21 matches (62%) of 2015.

So - does a coach really, truly, forget how to coach or lose the ability to coach between Round 24 2015 and being sacked Rd 26 2017? Is that a logical argument?

Is there perhaps anything that happened in 2015 that might explain the beginning of the slide? Well, yes, that's the year Sam Burgess left to play rugby. Late 2014, after the GF win, he goes back to England. He then resurfaces in 2016... is he the same player? Ben Te'o also joins rugby at the same time.

Api Koroisau has left after 2014; there's a decline in Isaac Luke and he leaves for Warriors in 2016. Souths have signed Damien Cook but he only plays 18 games between 2016-2017 then emerges into Origin contention in 2018. BTW Cook a player identified and signed during Madge's tenure, after wallowing in reserves at Dragons and Bulldogs.

Anything else remarkable happen in 2015-2017 to explain a non-coach decline at Souths? Well Luke Keary only started 14 matches in 2016 and then signed for Roosters in 2017. Roosters finished 2nd that year and fell 1 game short of the GF, having come second-last the previous year.

2017 is also when Greg Inglis did his knee Rd 1 against Tigers and missed the rest of the season.

So you have 2015 with Burgess and Te'o gone, but Souths still make the finals, even though they are knocked out week 1. 2016 they have a bad year (9W 15L), and trying to turn things around for 2017, Luke Keary leaves and Greg Inglis plays 1 match.

2018 - Cameron Murray has emerged, Cody Walker has cemented his spot, Greg Inglis is back, Angus Crichton has emerged as a key player, Damien Cook has cemented himself in Origin. Souths play finals again. Michael Maguire responsible for 100% of these signings and debuts.

Now that 2018 coach is Anthony Seibold and people reckon this guy, after serving good time as assistant coach, is the real deal. He coaches Souths to the finals, leaves after 1 year, gets Broncos to finals in 2019, then spectacularly bombs in 2020 and leaves a basketcase club trying to recover in 2021.

So amongst all that, is Anthony Seibold completely responsible for Souths playing finals in 2018? Could Madge Maguire have achieved the same thing if they had left him on, considering he would have got Inglis back, and he brought along all of the new cadre of Souths footballers - Cody Walker, Murray, Crichton, Cook, Alex Johnston?

There's so much more to it than just "18 wins out of 52". There are so many comparisons - why is it that Ivan Cleary made finals on and off during 10+ years with Warriors, Penrith and Tigers, but is almost unbeatable the last 40 rounds with Penrith? Why did Seibold have spectacular success then bomb right out? How did Wayne Bennett fail to make the finals 2/3 years at the Knights?

What about Ricky Stuart, who made the finals twice in his 9 campaigns across Sharks-Parra-Canberra, then made Raiders a legitimate title threat 2019-2020, but seems to have "lost the dressing room" completely in 2021. What about Des Hasler, who has made the finals most seasons with Dogs and Manly, but was cut by the Dogs in 2017, didn't coach in 2018, then came back in 2019 and got Manly to the finals, before having an ordinary 2020 (and 2021 still in the balance). Do Des' future fortunes have anything at all to do with the influence of 1 or 2 key players at Manly, going from laughing stock to finals contender in the space of 5 weeks?

You've listed a lot of detail there but you seem to have brushed over 2017, so let's look at that year in a bit more detail. All Burgess brothers healthy, halves combo of Reynolds and Walker, Cook at hooker with Farah off the bench and Crichton at 2R. Sutton still a productive player. Alex Johnston at fullback

Every single one of those 10 players would be shoe ins in our current squad, yet he could only get them to 12th position on the ladder. Let's highlight a few performances which mirror our own.

Started off the season with a loss to the mighty Wests Tigers with the scarecrow at the helm, losing 34-18. next few rounds were 3 wins and 2 losses.

In round 7 they got beaten 24-9 by a Canterbury team comprising a halves combo of Moses Mbye and Josh Reynolds. In the press conference he talked about 'key moments' and 80 minute performances, which sounds familiar.

In round 9 they got beaten 46-8 vs Manly. Here's the press conference. "not what we're about" "attitude issues" "doing the right things at training". Remove Sam Burgess from the video and it could have been from the weekend.

https://www.nrl.com/tv/matches/telstra-premiership/2017/round-9/rd-9-press-conference-rabbitohs/

From there we had fairly mixed performances (moving between 12th and 14th) and then we get to the final 2 rounds

In round 25 they got beaten 64-6 against the Melbourne Storm, where he thought it would make sense to move Walker to fullback and play John Sutton at 6.

In round 26 they got beaten 22-16 by the Eels when he decided to mix things up again by playing Damien Cook at fullback.

All in all, with that team, he finished 12th and conceded on average 24 points per game. A pretty shocking performance considering the talent.

Mate you and I and some others know Madge was a good coach, the game changed and left him behind, and he seems next to no chance of catching back up, time to move on with a more in touch coach

 

[Newtown]

Madge has a lot to answer for, but please don’t pretend the club are victims. This has gone on since Mick Potter. The problems go way deeper than the coach.

Like a lot a lot of highly paid administrators, club and business, they collect their huge pay cheques but just sick back and let the grass grow under their feet.

 

[Newtown]

We must be really bad at selecting coaches.. Changing one hasn't worked in a decade. Maybe this time will be different. Not before another rebuild though, can't wait for that.

The club has been through rebuilds before. Let's hope this next one is positive.

 

[Saturnalia]

We must be really bad at selecting coaches.. Changing one hasn't worked in a decade. Maybe this time will be different. Not before another rebuild though, can't wait for that.

The club has been through rebuilds before. Let's hope this next one is positive.

Something something about doing the same thing and expecting something different.

 

[Sco77y]

The only way it's worth sacking the coach is if it's for Bellamy, no less. Otherwise we'll be having this same conversation in 2 years time, just like we have on repeat for the last decade.

 

[Geo]

This is a Madge thread for sure..