The next controversial call the Wests Tigers must make

@hammertime said:
@Cultured Bogan said:
@Chris said:
If JT got his 1 year extension at the start of the season, that would give him 2 more years at the club. I'd rather wait and see how thing went and how the team were performing mid season. If we're well entrenched in the top 8, that would tell me he's on the right path and I'd give him a 2 year extension. If we're at the tail end of the season, I'd start the search for a new coach.

Agree 100%, any talk of extension before mid-season and being entrenched deep in the top 4-6 is crazy.

Give him most of the year to prove himself (un)worthy of the extension. It's not as though other clubs will be bashing the door down to take him.

I actually think you both are crazy. Keep the coach unknown in the same year we are trying to resign our key players? Geezus guys… What kind of message does that send to the players we are trying to get to buy into the clubs plans?

Extend him, but with kpi's. The only way we should look for a new coach is if Ted or Mitch won't sign.

It achieves exactly the same as what you are saying above, but gives us stability. Far more logical approach.

This year is not the one to keep a coaching decision up in the air. You need firm plans & direction from our leaders. The lack of that is why we have been a rabble for so long and it's why the Brisbane's, bulldogs and Melbourne's are always contenders.

They'll also be contenders for their signature if we look like we are about to go back to being the rabble we have been.

Us as fans need to get smarter and not promote instability.

How many coaches honestly take on contracts with KPI's? One of our CEO's got punted for trying to implement it.

If Taylor by some small chance does get approached by another club and they won't offer KPI's in a contract he won't hang around, and you're no better off anyway.

Do you extend him for one year to hang on to critical players, only to go on and have two further shocking seasons or punt him at years end and pay him out? That's just as mental.
 
@Pawsandclaws said:
@Tiger4life said:
He doesnt need to exceed expectations he just has to meet them. What was the clubs 3 year plan? Top 8 last year, top 4 this year. I know you hate talking about defence but he has taken us backwards in defence. The funny part is if you call out taylor on these things its because its a personal thing, what a joke. Having an opinion on the coach does not make me or anyone else less of a supporter than someone who blindly follows the coach no matter what.

Well written. We didn't make the 8 last year and there is already talk of softening the Top 4 target this year. Why? So JT is not held accountable. The targets are a furphy, because we know JT is a protected species despite all the rhetoric which suggests otherwise. And as you have correctly written, having an opinion does not make you less or a supporter only one which recognises this club has gone backwards on the field under Taylor.

I hardly think JT is a protected species. The knives were out for him last year, and bet your bottom dollar they will be out again this year if Tigers have a run of losses. Taylor is not hugely popular across the media, not particularly respected amongst fans and under huge pressure to get a historically poor resulted team to the finals.

Or put it this way, if Taylor gets Tigers to the finals in 2017, it will be only the 4th time it's happened in 18 seasons. People can say that it's not asking much to make the finals, but clearly for the Tigers, it's asking a lot.

In terms of the public "3 year plan" for results, I think some people look into this too hard. Of course teams aim to make the finals and then improve on the previous seasons - that is standard for sports clubs and what fans expect. Nobody is going to realistically plan to come 8th in the second year and hope to achieve the same result in the 3rd year. No business sets public budgets that are flat or worse than last year, it ruins public sentiment.

So I don't think you can realistically say Tigers are softening their 3rd-year plan excessively if they are happy with less than a Top 4 finish. Nor is it realistic that they would reduce their target for the sole purpose of keeping Jason Taylor in his job as a "protected species". The club have made it clear they want management stability and intelligent spending, as much as any on-field results. Plans should also adapt based on recent performance.

In the last 5 years, only 5 sides have made the Top 4 more than once; 10 sides have made it total. It's not realistic for most clubs to think they are going to be in the Top 4 on a regular basis, that's just not how things work.

Both of you also have this thing about Tigers going backwards under Taylor. I simply can't understand how you can support this overall. I'm a stats person and in 2015 I made a point of how Tigers did better in defence versus Potter years. A lot of negative feedback was along the lines of "you can make stats say anything", "maybe we concede less points overall but our defence is not powerful enough", "sure defence was improved but our position on the table was still unacceptable", "our defence did improve but I think it was at the expense of the attack" (aka the old Taylorball argument).

So sure, defence was improved in 2015 but we came 15th, so really what good did it do us? For me, it was the start of seeing changes where I felt they were needed most, even if the results didn't come straight away. Then last year we came 9th and it sucked to miss the finals, but it was the best table result since 2011\. But no, T4L wants to go back to the defence argument now as it suits, that the defence got worse in 2016 and despite the better win frequency, we are apparently going backwards.

So if you take that approach, you will find some element of club performance that does not improve year on year. If you look hard enough, you'll find something where Taylor is overseeing some drop in performance. Of course that argument works the other way, it works that you can also find modest improvements to support the coach.

But after coming 10th, 15th, 13th, 15th since 2012, how can 9th not be an improvement? I don't get it.
 
Well jirskyr,to you and I both, 9th was a great result after the previous years,if it was any other coach the JT detractors would have applauded the finishing position….just quietly,,,,they don't like JT ,doesn't matter how much he improves the team up the ladder...I don't know about you,but I'm happy to see how much better we get this season,especially now that the younger guys are really starting to understand how nrl works and have a lot more experience in the big arena...
 
@Pawsandclaws said:
@Tiger4life said:
@GNR4LIFE said:
@goldcoast tiger said:
How much clearer could Go Be?
She plainly said that it would take three years to sort it out.
No matter whether you like him or loathe him as a Coach. Face Facts. He knew the cap problems the club had, but as it was the last chance saloon for him , he didn't have any alternative. I recall one thing that was said when he was appointed, that he was prepared to work with what we had.

So despite him knowing our position, nothing less than exceeding expextations would be considered a pass mark? You don't like the man, that much is obvious. And your dislike is stopping you from being objective.

He doesnt need to exceed expectations he just has to meet them. What was the clubs 3 year plan? Top 8 last year, top 4 this year. I know you hate talking about defence but he has taken us backwards in defence. The funny part is if you call out taylor on these things its because its a personal thing, what a joke. Having an opinion on the coach does not make me or anyone else less of a supporter than someone who blindly follows the coach no matter what.

Well written. We didn't make the 8 last year and there is already talk of softening the Top 4 target this year. Why? So JT is not held accountable. The targets are a furphy, because we know JT is a protected species despite all the rhetoric which suggests otherwise. And as you have correctly written, having an opinion does not make you less or a supporter only one which recognises this club has gone backwards on the field under Taylor.

"The club has gone backwards on the field under Taylor". Solely using our ladder position at the end of last season would prove that statement to be very much incorrect.
Sure our defence had some atrocious lapses at times, Taylor is at fault for that but more so are the players. They can be told and drilled in defensive structure till the cows come home but it is ultimately the players' choice out in the heat of battle whether they are prepared to defend more stoutly or show a bit more desperation or desire to make that extra effort. You could handpick a team of the 13 best defenders in the NRL bui only if those players wanted to defend would they be successful as a unit.
The club's stance may have softened on our top 4 aspirations and rightly so IMO….realistically we are absolutely next to no chance of making the top 4 (unless we get afforded the same luxury of the Titans and have 3 or 4 top-notch players join our club mid-season). I'm sure the players' aim is to finish minor premiers but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Top 8 is very definitely an achievable goal, we will see what we can produce if we make it to the finals.
I will be cheering my guts out for our team and hoping for a successful year and top 8 finish. I could not care less who our coach is this year, next year or 15 years down the track. My support is for the WT team and club, whatever coach can get us success has my support as part of that.
Never liked Tim Sheens in all his years as a coach before he came to WT, after taking us to the pinnacle he was the best thing since sliced bread. Opinions change with success, let's hope that is the case with Taylor.
 
@jirskyr said:
@Pawsandclaws said:
@Tiger4life said:
He doesnt need to exceed expectations he just has to meet them. What was the clubs 3 year plan? Top 8 last year, top 4 this year. I know you hate talking about defence but he has taken us backwards in defence. The funny part is if you call out taylor on these things its because its a personal thing, what a joke. Having an opinion on the coach does not make me or anyone else less of a supporter than someone who blindly follows the coach no matter what.

Well written. We didn't make the 8 last year and there is already talk of softening the Top 4 target this year. Why? So JT is not held accountable. The targets are a furphy, because we know JT is a protected species despite all the rhetoric which suggests otherwise. And as you have correctly written, having an opinion does not make you less or a supporter only one which recognises this club has gone backwards on the field under Taylor.

I hardly think JT is a protected species. The knives were out for him last year, and bet your bottom dollar they will be out again this year if Tigers have a run of losses. Taylor is not hugely popular across the media, not particularly respected amongst fans and under huge pressure to get a historically poor resulted team to the finals.

Or put it this way, if Taylor gets Tigers to the finals in 2017, it will be only the 4th time it's happened in 18 seasons. People can say that it's not asking much to make the finals, but clearly for the Tigers, it's asking a lot.

In terms of the public "3 year plan" for results, I think some people look into this too hard. Of course teams aim to make the finals and then improve on the previous seasons - that is standard for sports clubs and what fans expect. Nobody is going to realistically plan to come 8th in the second year and hope to achieve the same result in the 3rd year. No business sets public budgets that are flat or worse than last year, it ruins public sentiment.

So I don't think you can realistically say Tigers are softening their 3rd-year plan excessively if they are happy with less than a Top 4 finish. Nor is it realistic that they would reduce their target for the sole purpose of keeping Jason Taylor in his job as a "protected species". The club have made it clear they want management stability and intelligent spending, as much as any on-field results. Plans should also adapt based on recent performance.

In the last 5 years, only 5 sides have made the Top 4 more than once; 10 sides have made it total. It's not realistic for most clubs to think they are going to be in the Top 4 on a regular basis, that's just not how things work.

Both of you also have this thing about Tigers going backwards under Taylor. I simply can't understand how you can support this overall. I'm a stats person and in 2015 I made a point of how Tigers did better in defence versus Potter years. A lot of negative feedback was along the lines of "you can make stats say anything", "maybe we concede less points overall but our defence is not powerful enough", "sure defence was improved but our position on the table was still unacceptable", "our defence did improve but I think it was at the expense of the attack" (aka the old Taylorball argument).

So sure, defence was improved in 2015 but we came 15th, so really what good did it do us? For me, it was the start of seeing changes where I felt they were needed most, even if the results didn't come straight away. Then last year we came 9th and it sucked to miss the finals, but it was the best table result since 2011\. But no, T4L wants to go back to the defence argument now as it suits, that the defence got worse in 2016 and despite the better win frequency, we are apparently going backwards.

So if you take that approach, you will find some element of club performance that does not improve year on year. If you look hard enough, you'll find something where Taylor is overseeing some drop in performance. Of course that argument works the other way, it works that you can also find modest improvements to support the coach.

But after coming 10th, 15th, 13th, 15th since 2012, how can 9th not be an improvement? I don't get it.

Defence or attack stats are as much about the teams that we play as they are about us.
 
@TrueTiger said:
Well jirskyr,to you and I both, 9th was a great result after the previous years,if it was any other coach the JT detractors would have applauded the finishing position….just quietly,,,,they don't like JT ,doesn't matter how much he improves the team up the ladder...I don't know about you,but I'm happy to see how much better we get this season,especially now that the younger guys are really starting to understand how nrl works and have a lot more experience in the big arena...

TT, we couldn't make the 8 and in many ways it was the lamest field in years for a variety of reasons I know you set the bar low, but others have expectations about making the 8 and how a coach manages his players including those he likes and dislikes.
 
@Pawsandclaws said:
@TrueTiger said:
Well jirskyr,to you and I both, 9th was a great result after the previous years,if it was any other coach the JT detractors would have applauded the finishing position….just quietly,,,,they don't like JT ,doesn't matter how much he improves the team up the ladder...I don't know about you,but I'm happy to see how much better we get this season,especially now that the younger guys are really starting to understand how nrl works and have a lot more experience in the big arena...

TT, we couldn't make the 8 and in many ways it was the lamest field in years for a variety of reasons I know you set the bar low, but others have expectations about making the 8 and how a coach manages his players including those he likes and dislikes.

I don't set the bar low at all,I don't have any particular height to set it because I'm a realist,and I know we as a team and club are getting over some major setbacks because of previous management,as well as that we have had a very ordinary roster to make the finals in for the last couple of seasons including some very hyped up and overated youngsters that are just starting to understand the rigours of top level NRL.Its accredit to Taylor for getting them to finish as close to the 8 as they did last year..I hope our team makes the top 4 this year just to see what crap you will come up with in regard to JT..
 
I set the bar high in 2012 when Wests Tigers were installed as Premiership favourites at the start of the season on the back of 2 Top 4 finishes..that was a bummer of a Year…

Are we below that bar...probably ..have we improved as a squad and a Club since then while enduring the pain of mis-management IMO Definately ..not all of that comes down to the Coach either...
 
@innsaneink said:
Not really… Each team has their own stats for A & D

I agree, They do ,
but your defence stats can be dependant on how effective their attack is
The same can be said about your attacking stats . They can vary according to how effective their defence is

If you're playing Newcastle , your attack stats would be likely to be better than usual
If you are playing the best attacking team , your defence would be likely to let more points in
It's not black and white, but your opposition strengths have a bearing on your own performance. In most cases.
 
@jadtiger said:
@formerguest said:
"From being an outsider, and from just one day here, I can see a good culture change; the players here are definitely buying into what the Head Coach wants and that's terrific.

Sure sounds like the coach has to go, as having a heap of players liking the direction the coach is taking is just so not WT.

How on earth can you notice a "good culture change" if you have only been at the club for 1 day?He should have said "the culture of the club seems fine".I am sure Fluffy the cat would believe it but i dont.
No more mediocrity no more excuses

On nrl.com they have a slightly different quote, I notice.

"I can see, being an outsider previously, after one day [on the job] that there's a good culture," Warwick said.
 
@Cultured Bogan said:
@hammertime said:
@Cultured Bogan said:
@Chris said:
If JT got his 1 year extension at the start of the season, that would give him 2 more years at the club. I'd rather wait and see how thing went and how the team were performing mid season. If we're well entrenched in the top 8, that would tell me he's on the right path and I'd give him a 2 year extension. If we're at the tail end of the season, I'd start the search for a new coach.

Agree 100%, any talk of extension before mid-season and being entrenched deep in the top 4-6 is crazy.

Give him most of the year to prove himself (un)worthy of the extension. It's not as though other clubs will be bashing the door down to take him.

I actually think you both are crazy. Keep the coach unknown in the same year we are trying to resign our key players? Geezus guys… What kind of message does that send to the players we are trying to get to buy into the clubs plans?

Extend him, but with kpi's. The only way we should look for a new coach is if Ted or Mitch won't sign.

It achieves exactly the same as what you are saying above, but gives us stability. Far more logical approach.

This year is not the one to keep a coaching decision up in the air. You need firm plans & direction from our leaders. The lack of that is why we have been a rabble for so long and it's why the Brisbane's, bulldogs and Melbourne's are always contenders.

They'll also be contenders for their signature if we look like we are about to go back to being the rabble we have been.

Us as fans need to get smarter and not promote instability.

How many coaches honestly take on contracts with KPI's? One of our CEO's got punted for trying to implement it.

If Taylor by some small chance does get approached by another club and they won't offer KPI's in a contract he won't hang around, and you're no better off anyway.

Do you extend him for one year to hang on to critical players, only to go on and have two further shocking seasons or punt him at years end and pay him out? That's just as mental.

We wouldn't know how many coaches have kpis and yes, our prior CEO got punted when sheensy had way more power than he ever should have.

So, basically your arguement is that you think JT wouldn't go for it so why try?
 
@Masterton said:
@jadtiger said:
@formerguest said:
"From being an outsider, and from just one day here, I can see a good culture change; the players here are definitely buying into what the Head Coach wants and that's terrific.

Sure sounds like the coach has to go, as having a heap of players liking the direction the coach is taking is just so not WT.

How on earth can you notice a "good culture change" if you have only been at the club for 1 day?He should have said "the culture of the club seems fine".I am sure Fluffy the cat would believe it but i dont.
No more mediocrity no more excuses

On nrl.com they have a slightly different quote, I notice.

"I can see, being an outsider previously, after one day [on the job] that there's a good culture," Warwick said.

That makes far more sense and is more in line as what should have been quoted.
 
@hammertime said:
@Cultured Bogan said:
@hammertime said:
@Cultured Bogan said:
Agree 100%, any talk of extension before mid-season and being entrenched deep in the top 4-6 is crazy.

Give him most of the year to prove himself (un)worthy of the extension. It's not as though other clubs will be bashing the door down to take him.

I actually think you both are crazy. Keep the coach unknown in the same year we are trying to resign our key players? Geezus guys… What kind of message does that send to the players we are trying to get to buy into the clubs plans?

Extend him, but with kpi's. The only way we should look for a new coach is if Ted or Mitch won't sign.

It achieves exactly the same as what you are saying above, but gives us stability. Far more logical approach.

This year is not the one to keep a coaching decision up in the air. You need firm plans & direction from our leaders. The lack of that is why we have been a rabble for so long and it's why the Brisbane's, bulldogs and Melbourne's are always contenders.

They'll also be contenders for their signature if we look like we are about to go back to being the rabble we have been.

Us as fans need to get smarter and not promote instability.

How many coaches honestly take on contracts with KPI's? One of our CEO's got punted for trying to implement it.

If Taylor by some small chance does get approached by another club and they won't offer KPI's in a contract he won't hang around, and you're no better off anyway.

Do you extend him for one year to hang on to critical players, only to go on and have two further shocking seasons or punt him at years end and pay him out? That's just as mental.

We wouldn't know how many coaches have kpis and yes, our prior CEO got punted when sheensy had way more power than he ever should have.

So, basically your arguement is that you think JT wouldn't go for it so why try?

Most coaches appear to be paid out when they are sacked so I'd wager many of them don't.

The club can try it all they want, it's the boards funeral. I just don't want to extend him and have it go to pot and be stuck with him longer than we should have been because we shot our load and resigned him hastily. We did that with Sheens on his last contract and it cost us dearly.
 
@Pawsandclaws said:
@TrueTiger said:
Well jirskyr,to you and I both, 9th was a great result after the previous years,if it was any other coach the JT detractors would have applauded the finishing position….just quietly,,,,they don't like JT ,doesn't matter how much he improves the team up the ladder...I don't know about you,but I'm happy to see how much better we get this season,especially now that the younger guys are really starting to understand how nrl works and have a lot more experience in the big arena...

TT, we couldn't make the 8 and in many ways it was the lamest field in years for a variety of reasons I know you set the bar low, but others have expectations about making the 8 and how a coach manages his players including those he likes and dislikes.

I'm truly curious by what measure you think 2016 was a "lame field". It's not like a horse race where you can measure the speed of the race or the number of Group-1 wins of the individual horses.

Every year 16 teams compete and every year 8 of them make it, and one of them ends up the best. Any year-on-year comparison between teams is purely fantasy football type stuff, you obviously can't have the 1991 Broncos play the 2016 Sharks (well you could, but the Broncos wouldn't fare so well now).

It's just an opinion, that the teams weren't that good last year? Do you mean the player pool or just the overall performance of the average player? Most of those players were playing in 2015 as well, but that was a better season?

I don't know if I'm like TT in saying 9th was a good result, it wasn't, it was just a better result than we are used to and specifically comfortably better than the year before.
 
@jirskyr said:
@Pawsandclaws said:
@TrueTiger said:
Well jirskyr,to you and I both, 9th was a great result after the previous years,if it was any other coach the JT detractors would have applauded the finishing position….just quietly,,,,they don't like JT ,doesn't matter how much he improves the team up the ladder...I don't know about you,but I'm happy to see how much better we get this season,especially now that the younger guys are really starting to understand how nrl works and have a lot more experience in the big arena...

TT, we couldn't make the 8 and in many ways it was the lamest field in years for a variety of reasons I know you set the bar low, but others have expectations about making the 8 and how a coach manages his players including those he likes and dislikes.

I'm truly curious by what measure you think 2016 was a "lame field". It's not like a horse race where you can measure the speed of the race or the number of Group-1 wins of the individual horses.

Every year 16 teams compete and every year 8 of them make it, and one of them ends up the best. Any year-on-year comparison between teams is purely fantasy football type stuff, you obviously can't have the 1991 Broncos play the 2016 Sharks (well you could, but the Broncos wouldn't fare so well now).

It's just an opinion, that the teams weren't that good last year? Do you mean the player pool or just the overall performance of the average player? Most of those players were playing in 2015 as well, but that was a better season?

I don't know if I'm like TT in saying 9th was a good result, it wasn't, it was just a better result than we are used to and specifically comfortably better than the year before.

I was comparing last year to 14/15 results and finishing 9th was a much better result than expected..so by that comparison the team is improving,whether they can achieve a higher finish this year is yet to be seen…Iam perceiving that if they perform well from the start of this year and continue improvement especially the defense,then a top 8 finish is not beyond them....
 
It's fair to say that the Roosters never recovered from the Pearce controversy and underperformed last year - except against us of course. And Parramatta were penalised out of contention - rightly so. Both those teams will be back in the mix this season and who knows if the Warriors will actually perform to their ability and Souths will be looking to improve on last years performance.
The only team in the top eight who seems to be on
the downslide a bit is the Bulldogs - who still managed to out muscle us.
So just looking at rosters alone without taking into account key injuries, and possible off field dramas, I think we will have to perform significantly better this
year to finish ninth. Anything above that will exceed my expectations.
 
@Telltails said:
It's fair to say that the Roosters never recovered from the Pearce controversy and underperformed last year - except against us of course. And Parramatta were penalised out of contention - rightly so. Both those teams will be back in the mix this season and who knows if the Warriors will actually perform to their ability and Souths will be looking to improve on last years performance.
The only team in the top eight who seems to be on
the downslide a bit is the Bulldogs - who still managed to out muscle us.
So just looking at rosters alone without taking into account key injuries, and possible off field dramas, I think we will have to perform significantly better this
year to finish ninth. Anything above that will exceed my expectations.

Part of the appeal of the NRL is that you never can tell who will have an off-field drama or a season-ending injury in a key position. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Titans & Dogs slipped out the 8.

Realistically, we're 2 more wins away from being ensconced in the top 8\. Very achievable barring injury.
 
@Cultured Bogan said:
@Chris said:
If JT got his 1 year extension at the start of the season, that would give him 2 more years at the club. I'd rather wait and see how thing went and how the team were performing mid season. If we're well entrenched in the top 8, that would tell me he's on the right path and I'd give him a 2 year extension. If we're at the tail end of the season, I'd start the search for a new coach.

Agree 100%, any talk of extension before mid-season and being entrenched deep in the top 4-6 is crazy.

Give him most of the year to prove himself (un)worthy of the extension. It's not as though other clubs will be bashing the door down to take him.

If we are entrenched in the top 4-6 halfway through the season, all of a sudden, JT has the upper hand in negotiations. Think about it - he has made a big call and got a young team firing into the top 4 - he will be in demand with other clubs and his price will rise.

Extend him now for one year, we get him cheap and those coming off contract know the coaching situation for 2018.
 
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