There really is a God

[Abraham]

Are you willing to take up my challenge of a debate on this? Im interested in hearing some of your thoughts. Not on here of course.
First you need to understand we're not making any claims, were simply refuting your claim and asking you to back it up with evidence. I admit i don't know how everything got here, just like if you were honest enough should also.
The existence of a particular god and the beginning of the universe are two different subjects.
If you want to talk about a particular god belief im all about it.

Nothing to be gained from any 'debate'.

I've been involved in tens of these, and been a spectator to probably 100 others.

Based on what you've contributed to this thread, nothing your saying is any different to what has been put forward 1000 times before.

The oldest and most controversial question in the history of mankind is not going to be solved through an email back and forth.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[TIGER]

People who doubt the existence of God need need only look in the mirror.

If you think that the miracle which we call life is the cause of a mysterious chemical reaction billions of years ago, which has not happened before or after, has never been proven, and cannot be explained, well you need to answer your own 'proof' argument before questioning others on the issue of proof.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

Are you willing to take up my challenge of a debate on this? Im interested in hearing some of your thoughts. Not on here of course.
First you need to understand we're not making any claims, were simply refuting your claim and asking you to back it up with evidence. I admit i don't know how everything got here, just like if you were honest enough should also.
The existence of a particular god and the beginning of the universe are two different subjects.
If you want to talk about a particular god belief im all about it.

Tiger, your faith is your choice. I'm glad your a tigers fan.

Out of interest, what's your view on why so many of Jesus's disciples went on to die for their faith once they realised Jesus wasn't God. What I mean is when he died in disgrace on the cross and in your reality didn't rise from the dead, why would they go on to say they saw him in the flesh?

Before being horribly executed any of them could have just said they didn't see him and then go back to being a fisherman.

Why die for a known lie? People die sticking to their faith. People don't die for known lies… Do they?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

My view is that the bible is a story it's not historical, its an allegory, yes it mentions real places but so does spiderman, am i to believe he is real too? Even if i grant theres truth to the claims in it i can explain why people died for what they believed, maybe they truly believed he was who he said he was, it doesn't mean its the truth. If david copperfield was around in those days and did a simple magic trick, he'd have thousands of illiterate highly superstitious fisherman convinced he was god too. Theres people today that would lay their life down for their leader, muslims do it, does it indicate the truth of their god?
Who are Matthew, mark, luke and john? anonymous authors thats who, none of them were eyewitness to anything, all they do is talk about stories of eyewitnesses but they're exactly that 'stories'.

Youtube, Bart ehrman new testament unreliable-does it matter. Watch it and let me know your thoughts.

 

[TurnStyle]

I have to admit that it is my fault that the Wests Tigers are in the poor position that they find themselves in. Not just this year either.

I am really sorry. I apologise to all WT supporters for my selfish behaviour.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have prayed to God the night of the 2005 grand final. In a moment of weakness and complete selfishness I asked God that night, that if my Wests Tigers won, then I wouldn't care if they never won a premiership ever again.

I just wanted to win THAT game, THAT premiership! All my son's in-laws are Cowboy supporters - it was pride and 'pride cometh before a fall'

Please? How do I redeemeth myself?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

im ignoring everyone taking this to a debate on metaphysics and existentialism and addressing the OP in the vein it was intended:

although i didnt actually pray, i had (and still do have!) the very same thoughts cq! after the heartache of 1988 and 1989 (in particular - still cant believe ryan took roach and sironen off! - they should have never lost that!) and so many years of never looking a snowflakes chance in hell i am STILL just happy they won it in 2005!

it was a fairytale premiership and the most exciting end to a season i have ever experienced. it is the only time a team i have loved (apart from playing) won the premiership. add to that the game itself and benji's iconic flick pass to pat, well i am still grateful to this day!

in saying that, although i only wanted that one premiership, i wasnt expecting to have to have the pain of seasons like this to pay for it!!

 

[TIGER]

Dialog of two entrenched opinionated sides, where neither is listening, and will never accept whatever argument presented by the opposition :slight_smile:. Most intelligent people have moved on (I know JGillard immortal words, second only to 'we are us' :slight_smile🙂, and recognised that spiritual and science domains are still two different, separate domains.

Not unless people claim that spirituality has an effect on the physical world which they all do, cause why claim to believe in something that has no effect right? So if they say it effects the physical world then that is a scientific claim science can investigate. If something effects the world in any way shape or form physically, then it should leave a trace of itself, if it doesn't effect the world physically then who cares about it?

 

[TIGER]

Are you willing to take up my challenge of a debate on this? Im interested in hearing some of your thoughts. Not on here of course.
First you need to understand we're not making any claims, were simply refuting your claim and asking you to back it up with evidence. I admit i don't know how everything got here, just like if you were honest enough should also.
The existence of a particular god and the beginning of the universe are two different subjects.
If you want to talk about a particular god belief im all about it.

Nothing to be gained from any 'debate'.

I've been involved in tens of these, and been a spectator to probably 100 others.

Based on what you've contributed to this thread, nothing your saying is any different to what has been put forward 1000 times before.

The oldest and most controversial question in the history of mankind is not going to be solved through an email back and forth.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

We don't have to debate on the existence of god, lets talk about other things such as Christian morality, Faith, free will, sin, soul saving, redemption, problem of evil, creationism, evolution, christianity, omnipotent/scient/benevolent, heaven, hell.
Gods characteristics. etc. Your choice.

 

[TIGER]

By its own definition this thing people refer to as god is a logical contradiction therefore cannot exist or absolutely useless, take your pick.

If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, Then he is not omnipotent.
If he's able, but not willing, Then he is malevolent.
If he's both able and willing, Then he is evil.
If he's neither able nor willing, Then why call him god?

 

[happy_tiger]

I have to admit that it is my fault that the Wests Tigers are in the poor position that they find themselves in. Not just this year either.

I am really sorry. I apologise to all WT supporters for my selfish behaviour.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have prayed to God the night of the 2005 grand final. In a moment of weakness and complete selfishness I asked God that night, that if my Wests Tigers won, then I wouldn't care if they never won a premiership ever again.

I just wanted to win THAT game, THAT premiership! All my son's in-laws are Cowboy supporters - it was pride and 'pride cometh before a fall'

Please? How do I redeemeth myself?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

im ignoring everyone taking this to a debate on metaphysics and existentialism and addressing the OP in the vein it was intended:

although i didnt actually pray, i had (and still do have!) the very same thoughts cq! after the heartache of 1988 and 1989 (in particular - still cant believe ryan took roach and sironen off! - they should have never lost that!) and so many years of never looking a snowflakes chance in hell i am STILL just happy they won it in 2005!

it was a fairytale premiership and the most exciting end to a season i have ever experienced. it is the only time a team i have loved (apart from playing) won the premiership. add to that the game itself and benji's iconic flick pass to pat, well i am still grateful to this day!

in saying that, although i only wanted that one premiership, i wasnt expecting to have to have the pain of seasons like this to pay for it!!

This will sound weird , but I have never been so confident the WT's would win a game in my whole life as I was that day

You wasted our soul CQ , you didn't need to pray our future away

How to redeem yourself , 50 Hail Mary's and you have to buy every WT's supporter a beer (and apologize ) bar Geo , who will want a pie or a red cordial

Take him to Cranno's

 

[Tigerdave]

So, there's no clear evidence of a deity or deities. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide the evidence.

If you want to believe some deity created the 'spark of life' and who no longer interferes, then by all means….......although you'll then need to avoid the infinite regress of who created this deity?

Religious texts did not fall from the sky, they were written by men, edited by men, translated by men.

There's no evidence of a soul or spirit.

There is no such thing as a divinly granted free will, certainly not from an omnipotent and omniscient deity. There are certainly things in life where we have no choice.

There is no objective morality

Because science has yet to nail down everything, does not mean goddidit.

 

[goldcoast_tiger]

Excuse me…..Brian is the Messiah...

No Brian is just a very naughty boy

 

[Tigermama]

Where did god originate from. And how did he pass his time before he :righton: created us?

GOD, was Bored.. That's why he created us… :mrgreen:

That's what my mum said about my dad.

:laughing:

 

[Mccarry]

By its own definition this thing people refer to as god is a logical contradiction therefore cannot exist or absolutely useless, take your pick.

If god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, Then he is not omnipotent.
If he's able, but not willing, Then he is malevolent.
If he's both able and willing, Then he is evil.
If he's neither able nor willing, Then why call him god?

This sounds so smart but fortunately it is flawed. It's the kind of thing I would have quoted a decade ago before exploring the topic with people who could help me through the journey. It's what I hung to when I wanted to reject God.

God grants free will to all of us. Once he lives our lives for us then why would we exist? He would just do our important existing for us.

Imagine the pain he must feel watching me make terrible decisions on a weekly basis. Yet he loves me so much he lets me be me. Yet when I truly trust him and pray sometimes he does intervene. I trust he knows when too and when not too intervene.

Boil all our great and horrible choices down and you are left with the essence of the human condition: do I believe? God has left me with this choice. He hasn't obviously over played his hand and in doing so removed my choice, he has consistently been there when I have sort him.

I have never found him through chasing the apple (humanly knowledge) though I have tried. I have only found him in my heart, in prayer and in seeing him work in my life when I opened up to him.

Please believe what you will. I am just sharing my perspective. Go the Tigers.

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[Mccarry]

Do each of you really want God to just show / give you the answer?

When I help my kids with homework there comes a point where I have shown them so many of the parts of the answer that when they sprout it out, it's not their answer its my answer.

If God did this with faith (the largest choice in life) then the decision of whether I believe would be his answer not mine.

The implication would be that God makes us, gives us the ability to make choices and then makes the only important choice for us…

Instead he loves me so much he sticks with me as I make all my terrible choices. Then the justice that is coming to me he takes on himself. He then just asks my flawed self to acknowledge that I deserved the justice and that I BELIEVE that Jesus took it for me.

It blows me away.

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[Abraham]

Religious texts did not fall from the sky, they were written by men, edited by men, translated

But they were not inspired by men.

Did you know that that creation story in the Bible sets out the exact order in which our universe was created?

It wasn't until thousands of years later that scientists were able to work this out themselves.

Now you tell me what the mathematic possibility is that a bunch of desert Jews, without the scientific assistance of even a magnifying glass, would be able to predict the exact order in which the universe was created some 4,000 years ago?

Almost impossible I would say.

Because science has yet to nail down everything, does not mean goddidit.

By the same token, it does not mean that He didn't do it.

That's the whole premise of this debate… There are a lot of large gaps concerning such great mysteries, that people fill using solutions that they feel most comfortable with.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[TrueTiger]

I can hear True Tiger footsteps :wink:

Ok FT,here Iam,I was in Sydney for the Vivid light show yesterday and only just got back,so Iam sorry I have missed a lot of the discussion as it appears to be full of emotion and faith/non believers….

No doubt you would like my view on this "debate"it seems...first of all I was raised strictly Catholic,from being an alter boy,Catholic primary and Catholic secondary school...where our motto was" Fortes in Fide",translated mean pride in faith...it is Latin...now that's sorted,I really think the point that everyone has missed is,what you are taught from a young age,your education and religious beliefs go hand in hand,or did with my upbringing..Some will call it brainwashed,others strictly believe in what they were taught is natural way of life...
I,for anyone that cares do believe in God and never have wavered that God doesn't exist,I was taught my beliefs as were my parents and their parents etc...If someone doesn't agree or believe that's also fine by me,they have their reasons and I will respect them for that..
If some have a different denomination to Catholic that's also fine because they have what they were taught as their religion or worship...Don't get me wrong I through my upbringing was taught "tolerance " sometimes a much maligned word in this day and age..that is what we have to be....tolerant of others opinions and beliefs,we shouldn't and I stress shouldn't believe our teachings are better than others,we all have a right to believe or not to believe in what we have been taught......

The one big thing that absolutely disgusts me is when the radicals of a religion kill innocent men women and children in the name of God and you will be rewarded...In having said that,most of all the different religions and denominations that I have mixed with over the years,all believe in peace,love and "thou shalt not kill"...it's called respect of human life,and that is what all of us should adhere to...as for our champion mate Tiger,he is steadfast in his beliefs and I respect him for that,as for evidence,I really only have my teachings from the bible,the shroud of Taurin,the piece of the cross that Jesus died on imbedded in the Popes ring....once again beliefs and what makes you happy in life,if you help someone along the way etc etc and you feel you and your family are good people,then you believe in whatever you want,and always respect others and life itself....I hope this is the sermon you were after FT,let me know if I can help you further...

Side note,if ever anyone wants to read a psalm....find FOOTPRINTS in a catholic shop or on the net somewhere,if read in the context of life itself then it has meaning... :smiley:

 

[fairdinkum]

Religious texts did not fall from the sky, they were written by men, edited by men, translated

But they were not inspired by men.

Did you know that that creation story in the Bible sets out the exact order in which our universe was created?

It wasn't until thousands of years later that scientists were able to work this out themselves.

Now you tell me what the mathematic possibility is that a bunch of desert Jews, without the scientific assistance of even a magnifying glass, would be able to predict the exact order in which the universe was created some 4,000 years ago?

Almost impossible I would say.

Because science has yet to nail down everything, does not mean goddidit.

**By the same token, it does not mean that He didn't do it.\
\
That's the whole premise of this debate… There are a lot of large gaps concerning such great mysteries, that people fill using solutions that they feel most comfortable with.**

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

"By the same token, it does not mean that He didn't do it. (WHAT THE F?)

That's the whole premise of this debate… There are a lot of large gaps concerning such great mysteries, that people fill using solutions that they feel most comfortable with"
\
\
\
And that ends the conversation fellow atheists. You can not talk logic to people (the religious) that are simply not open to logical thinking.

Theists are not interested in the **truth**, as demonstrated in the quote above. Theists just want to feel warm and fuzzy and cherry pick certain parts of their religion that fits their point of view.

To the logical rational people on this forum, we can clearly see there has never been a sound reason whatsoever put forward by a theist to demonstrate the existence of any of the thousands of deities of any sect of any cult that currently exists or existed throughout human history.

As an atheist I actually care about the truth.

To say you have to have "faith" is the weakest thing a theist could ever say, they are forfeiting the debate as soon as they say that. Essentially a theist is saying "yes, i know i have no evidence, no logical, rational reason to believe in this thing that was made up but if you close your eyes and wish really really hard you can make it true, you just have to switch of that part of the brain that controls logic and reason, now open your eyes....wallah"

There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" Thats what strives the human race to advancement, to find answers. To say "I don't know, therefore god" is just mind blowing and deeply concerning to somebody that actually cares about reality.

 

[Tigerdave]

Religious texts did not fall from the sky, they were written by men, edited by men, translated

But they were not inspired by men.

Did you know that that creation story in the Bible sets out the exact order in which our universe was created?

It wasn't until thousands of years later that scientists were able to work this out themselves.

Now you tell me what the mathematic possibility is that a bunch of desert Jews, without the scientific assistance of even a magnifying glass, would be able to predict the exact order in which the universe was created some 4,000 years ago?

Almost impossible I would say.
_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

1: How do you know they were not inspired by anyone other than men? and I'm not just talking about the Christian Bible here, there are hundreds of other religious texts talking about other religions.

2: Which genesis account are you talking about? there are 2 different versions in the Bible. In any event I don't see how the biblical story sets it out in the exact order, at this stage, there's nothing too concrete in regards to the creation of the universe.

So, can you explain exactly what you mean by exact order?
\

Because science has yet to nail down everything, does not mean goddidit.

By the same token, it does not mean that He didn't do it.

That's the whole premise of this debate… There are a lot of large gaps concerning such great mysteries, that people fill using solutions that they feel most comfortable with.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

Again, the onus is on the person making the claim. Using the God of Gaps argument is a fallacy and making oneself comfortable with the idea of a deity does not make it fact.

I'm not making a positive claim here, if science doesn't know, then it doesn't know.

 

[cqtiger]

I have to admit that it is my fault that the Wests Tigers are in the poor position that they find themselves in. Not just this year either.

I am really sorry. I apologise to all WT supporters for my selfish behaviour.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have prayed to God the night of the 2005 grand final. In a moment of weakness and complete selfishness I asked God that night, that if my Wests Tigers won, then I wouldn't care if they never won a premiership ever again.

I just wanted to win THAT game, THAT premiership! All my son's in-laws are Cowboy supporters - it was pride and 'pride cometh before a fall'

Please? How do I redeemeth myself?

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

im ignoring everyone taking this to a debate on metaphysics and existentialism and addressing the OP in the vein it was intended:

although i didnt actually pray, i had (and still do have!) the very same thoughts cq! after the heartache of 1988 and 1989 (in particular - still cant believe ryan took roach and sironen off! - they should have never lost that!) and so many years of never looking a snowflakes chance in hell i am STILL just happy they won it in 2005!

it was a fairytale premiership and the most exciting end to a season i have ever experienced. it is the only time a team i have loved (apart from playing) won the premiership. add to that the game itself and benji's iconic flick pass to pat, well i am still grateful to this day!

in saying that, although i only wanted that one premiership, i wasnt expecting to have to have the pain of seasons like this to pay for it!!

Thanks Turnstyle, you are one of the very few to understand my tongue-in-cheek post. I agree with all of your points, too

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[foreveratiger]

I can hear True Tiger footsteps :wink:

Ok FT,here Iam,I was in Sydney for the Vivid light show yesterday and only just got back,so Iam sorry I have missed a lot of the discussion as it appears to be full of emotion and faith/non believers….

No doubt you would like my view on this "debate"it seems...first of all I was raised strictly Catholic,from being an alter boy,Catholic primary and Catholic secondary school...where our motto was" Fortes in Fide",translated mean pride in faith...it is Latin...now that's sorted,I really think the point that everyone has missed is,what you are taught from a young age,your education and religious beliefs go hand in hand,or did with my upbringing..Some will call it brainwashed,others strictly believe in what they were taught is natural way of life...
I,for anyone that cares do believe in God and never have wavered that God doesn't exist,I was taught my beliefs as were my parents and their parents etc...If someone doesn't agree or believe that's also fine by me,they have their reasons and I will respect them for that..
If some have a different denomination to Catholic that's also fine because they have what they were taught as their religion or worship...Don't get me wrong I through my upbringing was taught "tolerance " sometimes a much maligned word in this day and age..that is what we have to be....tolerant of others opinions and beliefs,we shouldn't and I stress shouldn't believe our teachings are better than others,we all have a right to believe or not to believe in what we have been taught......

The one big thing that absolutely disgusts me is when the radicals of a religion kill innocent men women and children in the name of God and you will be rewarded...In having said that,most of all the different religions and denominations that I have mixed with over the years,all believe in peace,love and "thou shalt not kill"...it's called respect of human life,and that is what all of us should adhere to...as for our champion mate Tiger,he is steadfast in his beliefs and I respect him for that,as for evidence,I really only have my teachings from the bible,the shroud of Taurin,the piece of the cross that Jesus died on imbedded in the Popes ring....once again beliefs and what makes you happy in life,if you help someone along the way etc etc and you feel you and your family are good people,then you believe in whatever you want,and always respect others and life itself....I hope this is the sermon you were after FT,let me know if I can help you further...

Side note,if ever anyone wants to read a psalm....find FOOTPRINTS in a catholic shop or on the net somewhere,if read in the context of life itself then it has meaning... :smiley:

😱pen_mouth:, relax TT.
It was more in reference to this being a topic that you would have in put in. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[Tigerspirit]

I think you should all learn to respect what you dont understand, because if you really understood GOD, who is within everthing you definately wouldn't be defending only what you understand.

_Posted using RoarFEED 4.2.0_

 

[TrueTiger]

I can hear True Tiger footsteps :wink:

Ok FT,here Iam,I was in Sydney for the Vivid light show yesterday and only just got back,so Iam sorry I have missed a lot of the discussion as it appears to be full of emotion and faith/non believers….

No doubt you would like my view on this "debate"it seems...first of all I was raised strictly Catholic,from being an alter boy,Catholic primary and Catholic secondary school...where our motto was" Fortes in Fide",translated mean pride in faith...it is Latin...now that's sorted,I really think the point that everyone has missed is,what you are taught from a young age,your education and religious beliefs go hand in hand,or did with my upbringing..Some will call it brainwashed,others strictly believe in what they were taught is natural way of life...
I,for anyone that cares do believe in God and never have wavered that God doesn't exist,I was taught my beliefs as were my parents and their parents etc...If someone doesn't agree or believe that's also fine by me,they have their reasons and I will respect them for that..
If some have a different denomination to Catholic that's also fine because they have what they were taught as their religion or worship...Don't get me wrong I through my upbringing was taught "tolerance " sometimes a much maligned word in this day and age..that is what we have to be....tolerant of others opinions and beliefs,we shouldn't and I stress shouldn't believe our teachings are better than others,we all have a right to believe or not to believe in what we have been taught......

The one big thing that absolutely disgusts me is when the radicals of a religion kill innocent men women and children in the name of God and you will be rewarded...In having said that,most of all the different religions and denominations that I have mixed with over the years,all believe in peace,love and "thou shalt not kill"...it's called respect of human life,and that is what all of us should adhere to...as for our champion mate Tiger,he is steadfast in his beliefs and I respect him for that,as for evidence,I really only have my teachings from the bible,the shroud of Taurin,the piece of the cross that Jesus died on imbedded in the Popes ring....once again beliefs and what makes you happy in life,if you help someone along the way etc etc and you feel you and your family are good people,then you believe in whatever you want,and always respect others and life itself....I hope this is the sermon you were after FT,let me know if I can help you further...

Side note,if ever anyone wants to read a psalm....find FOOTPRINTS in a catholic shop or on the net somewhere,if read in the context of life itself then it has meaning... :smiley:

😱pen_mouth:, relax TT.
It was more in reference to this being a topic that you would have in put in. Nothing more nothing less.

FT,all good I did have some input with my thoughts and I really do appreciate you thinking that I may have something to add…I love having constructive input to any of our topics,it makes this forum go round and sometimes a little crazy...cheers mate.... :smiley: