Wests Tigers Coaches

[weststigers]

Okay - do you understand my points that when you recruit typically it means you are paying more than the club the player is currently playing for ?

Do you understand that typically you also provide longer term contracts ?



I understand this point.



Agreed.


This is subjective. I disagree with the point about throwing them in before they are ready. I mean of course this is true but who says you will kill their careers.

Some of the best coaches going around say it can kill a kids career. The best development coaches bring kids in slowly over a few seasons. Yes...there are exceptions to every rule where you get that one in a million talent, but we aren't basing this discussion on outliers are we?

I think if they don't have the talent they won't make it anyway. I also think it's not so cut and dry in relation to determining when they are ready.

I don't think being ready is subjective at all. You train, you learn and you get tested to standards that emulate the conditions you'll be playing in. Then your physical and emotional characteristics play a part. The list goes on...

I think all of this is though missing the point. You need a balance of recruitment and junior development.

There is already. Take a look at our current squad - I can count 13 players that would be on the minimum $120k per season or very close to. How many more are you looking to include before you look to recruit from outside?

Clubs like Melbourne and Penrith basically just recruit at the junior or development player level.

You can't compare Penrith's junior pathways, which has been nurtured for 10-15 years to get to this point with ours that has been neglected over the same period and is only now a major focus. Things don't happen overnight.

Melbourne are not stacked with rookies playing NRL week in, week out.

Clubs like the Roosters recruit the best talent from wherever they can get them.

I don't think we can compete recruiting like the Roosters and we can't let our cap get out of balance via thinking we can simply recruit the best possible team.

Lastly we've tried this approach for a while now and it's failed dismally.

Who said anything about recruiting like the Roosters? I'm talking about plugging holes in the positions that we have no talent in and judiciously buying quality. Not recruiting a team of superstars at whatever cost.

I think we need good juniors coming through and we need to be able to retain the ones that show they can perform. This means to me we need more focus on developing quality juniors rather than established players but the key point is that you need to have some flexibility in the cap to retain those players.

We ARE focusing on junior development. The ones that were talented enough to get a game or two were promoted already (Dias, Matamua, Kautoga, Pole, Freebairn).

One of them showed more promise than the others by far (Pole). Next season, those same juniors except for Pole will be in and out of first grade to cover for injuries while they serve their apprenticeship. It will be 1-2 years before they are playing regular first grade let alone being first picked. Most probably won't even make it as regular first graders.

We already have 13 players I can count on around minimum wage...we don't need MORE cheapies...we need to get rid of deadwood and invest that cap money in better players while our junior pathways have time to build.

Mbye, Reynolds and Packer have been the worst value for money players we've had and they were all our best recruits in relation to getting established players. They stuffed out cap for years.

Yes. These guys were bad...Don't forget Matulino.

Ivan was a muppet...he was looking for quick wins and killed us in the process. How those players got the money they did is beyond most in rugby league.

It seems the club is being more conservative in their recruitment approach now. I mean we got IP for $600K and AK for $700K - good deals if you ask me and in positions where we need it most. More astute purchases like this and paying overs for a few key players and it all balances out anyway.

Maybe we just see the world differently...

 

[earl]

Maybe we just see the world differently...

Correct.

 

[tony soprano]

Some of the best coaches going around say it can kill a kids career. The best development coaches bring kids in slowly over a few seasons. Yes...there are exceptions to every rule where you get that one in a million talent, but we aren't basing this discussion on outliers are we?


I don't think being ready is subjective at all. You train, you learn and you get tested to standards that emulate the conditions you'll be playing in. Then your physical and emotional characteristics play a part. The list goes on...


There is already. Take a look at our current squad - I can count 13 players that would be on the minimum $120k per season or very close to. How many more are you looking to include before you look to recruit from outside?



You can't compare Penrith's junior pathways, which has been nurtured for 10-15 years to get to this point with ours that has been neglected over the same period and is only now a major focus. Things don't happen overnight.

Melbourne are not stacked with rookies playing NRL week in, week out.




Who said anything about recruiting like the Roosters? I'm talking about plugging holes in the positions that we have no talent in and judiciously buying quality. Not recruiting a team of superstars at whatever cost.



We ARE focusing on junior development. The ones that were talented enough to get a game or two were promoted already (Dias, Matamua, Kautoga, Pole, Freebairn).

One of them showed more promise than the others by far (Pole). Next season, those same juniors except for Pole will be in and out of first grade to cover for injuries while they serve their apprenticeship. It will be 1-2 years before they are playing regular first grade let alone being first picked. Most probably won't even make it as regular first graders.

We already have 13 players I can count on around minimum wage...we don't need MORE cheapies...we need to get rid of deadwood and invest that cap money in better players while our junior pathways have time to build.


Yes. These guys were bad...Don't forget Matulino.

Ivan was a muppet...he was looking for quick wins and killed us in the process. How those players got the money they did is beyond most in rugby league.

It seems the club is being more conservative in their recruitment approach now. I mean we got IP for $600K and AK for $700K - good deals if you ask me and in positions where we need it most. More astute purchases like this and paying overs for a few key players and it all balances out anyway.

Maybe we just see the world differently...

U r very bold

 

[gregjm87]

Our biggest problem has been a dud attack. I'm an optimist and delusional most of the time. I think there is a possibility our attack will improve.

I also think our forwards and outside backs bar injuries can do the job. My big concern is the spine excluding API.

Our forward depth though is terrible.

I'm praying some more juniors come through and kill it.

Attack has not been our problem at all. Our biggest problem has been our defence (though this year it was both).
The previous 3 years we have been ranked 9th/8th/9th in attack and 15th/12th/11th in defence.
Given poor defence not only results in points conceded but also less attacking opportunity I think it would be fair to say we've had a top 8 quality attack the last few years. Unfortunately our defence was not up to standard.

 

[InBenjiWeTrust]

Okay - do you understand my points that when you recruit typically it means you are paying more than the club the player is currently playing for ?

Do you understand that typically you also provide longer term contracts ?



I understand this point.



Agreed.


This is subjective. I disagree with the point about throwing them in before they are ready. I mean of course this is true but who says you will kill their careers. I think if they don't have the talent they won't make it anyway. I also think it's not so cut and dry in relation to determining when they are ready.

I think all of this is though missing the point. You need a balance of recruitment and junior development.

Clubs like Melbourne and Penrith basically just recruit at the junior or development player level.

Clubs like the Roosters recruit the best talent from wherever they can get them.

I don't think we can compete recruiting like the Roosters and we can't let our cap get out of balance via thinking we can simply recruit the best possible team.

Lastly we've tried this approach for a while now and it's failed dismally.

I think we need good juniors coming through and we need to be able to retain the ones that show they can perform. This means to me we need more focus on developing quality juniors rather than established players but the key point is that you need to have some flexibility in the cap to retain those players.

Mbye, Reynolds and Packer have been the worst value for money players we've had and they were all our best recruits in relation to getting established players. They stuffed out cap for years.

I would add Ballin to that list

 

[earl]

Attack has not been our problem at all.

I think it has been. I'm also hopeful that Sheens can get the team attacking better.

 

[Red88_Tiger]

Attack has not been our problem at all. Our biggest problem has been our defence (though this year it was both).
The previous 3 years we have been ranked 9th/8th/9th in attack and 15th/12th/11th in defence.
Given poor defence not only results in points conceded but also less attacking opportunity I think it would be fair to say we've had a top 8 quality attack the last few years. Unfortunately our defence was not up to standard.

Attack under pressure when needing points was/is very ordinary. Other than that I agree

 

[Buttface]

I think it has been. I'm also hopeful that Sheens can get the team attacking better.

A and D has been rubbish, that’s why we’re last.

 

[Telltails]

A and D has been rubbish, that’s why we’re last.

Yet in the games we did win we beat much more fancied teams and rose to the occasion. The games we played well we had some leadership on the field. We had games against Warriors and Titans that were there for the taking and just couldn't ice them. Definitely a bottom eight side but the spoon could have been avoided.

 

[Buttface]

Yet in the games we did win we beat much more fancied teams and rose to the occasion. The games we played well we had some leadership on the field. We had games against Warriors and Titans that were there for the taking and just couldn't ice them. Definitely a bottom eight side but the spoon could have been avoided.

We won four games this year, and two of em by one point, you can sugar coat poo if you like, but I prefer to know when I am eating poo.
We got lucky in four games this year and came last. Maybe I’m a bit jaded.

 

[tig_prmz]

Yeah, a lot of the players he coached in Australian team say the same.

Beau Ryan said the same. Mentioned flanno was a more players coach inferred sheens can be all about footy coach but think he knows has to be more flexible with players these days.

He seems to be a very skill -based coach. Not a disciplinarian or someone who pushes his players the hardest. I think the S &C coaches will have to work independently without much support from Head or Assistant coaches.

If we are successful compared to let's say Bulldogs or Knights who have a 'new age' coach, I'd be very surprised.

In saying that though, Payten came from the Sheens school of coaching whereas Fitzgibbon is more focussed on sports science. They were both successful this year.

 

[Telltails]

We won four games this year, and two of em by one point, you can sugar coat poo if you like, but I prefer to know when I am eating poo.
We got lucky in four games this year and came last. Maybe I’m a bit jaded.

No luck involved in the wins against Parra and South's they were hard fought. Our blokes stood up in both those games. They had to - the other teams were by far better quality squads.

 

[Buttface]

No luck involved in the wins against Parra and South's they were hard fought. Our blokes stood up in both those games. They had to - the other teams were by far better quality squads.

Yeah they did not play to their usual level and we got close enough and jagged a couple of wins.

 

[weststigers]

U r very bold

Glad it achieved the desired result Don Tony 😂

 

[Mighty_Tiger]

Yet in the games we did win we beat much more fancied teams and rose to the occasion. The games we played well we had some leadership on the field. We had games against Warriors and Titans that were there for the taking and just couldn't ice them. Definitely a bottom eight side but the spoon could have been avoided.

Even if we beat the Warriors and Titans we finish 15th at best.
Even if we beat those teams and get the 2pts from the Cowboys we finish at best 13th.

We finished 2 games & 36pts behind the Warriors
We finished 10 games & 391pts from 8th spot

We came last by a mile.

If we changed our playing style, if we didn't have players suspended, if we didn't have injuries, if ref calls went our way blah blah. These are all things that every other team had to deal with all year just as much as us. Could it have been avoided sure...but it wasn't and we didn't actually get better as the season went on, we actually got worse.

Reality is this year we sucked, we weren't good enough & we are the longest way back from the top 8 than we have ever been by a mile.

Large changes have to happen and there isn't going to be an instant switch to resolve our issues.

Based on coaching & player data I have, next year I project us having Max of 11 wins with Min of 5 wins and finishing as high as 9th but trend shows 11th.

 

[Cobarcats]

We won four games this year, and two of em by one point, you can sugar coat poo if you like, but I prefer to know when I am eating poo.
We got lucky in four games this year and came last. Maybe I’m a bit jaded.

💩 Yuk

 

[Harvey]

Have they signed anyone yet?

 

[Telltails]

Even if we beat the Warriors and Titans we finish 15th at best.
Even if we beat those teams and get the 2pts from the Cowboys we finish at best 13th.

We finished 2 games & 36pts behind the Warriors
We finished 10 games & 391pts from 8th spot

We came last by a mile.

If we changed our playing style, if we didn't have players suspended, if we didn't have injuries, if ref calls went our way blah blah. These are all things that every other team had to deal with all year just as much as us. Could it have been avoided sure...but it wasn't and we didn't actually get better as the season went on, we actually got worse.

Reality is this year we sucked, we weren't good enough & we are the longest way back from the top 8 than we have ever been by a mile.

Large changes have to happen and there isn't going to be an instant switch to resolve our issues.

Based on coaching & player data I have, next year I project us having Max of 11 wins with Min of 5 wins and finishing as high as 9th but trend shows 11th.

We were always a bottom 4 squad with Maguire and without, but you would expect any club would do their best to avoid the spoon. I can guarantee that the other lower clubs we were competing against were doing their best to avoid it. The message from WTs however was that the season was over from rd 14 and that was reflected in their decision to give away players, talk about three years time and throw players in that were not FG standard. That 100% impacted on results.

 

[ancient_magpie]

I'm starting to think Sheens is more interested in 24 than 23.All this interest in Moses how would Douie Hastings and even the dreaded Brooks think.Do they start to think am I wanted or not .What do you think?

 

[The Fresh Oil]

I'm starting to think Sheens is more interested in 24 than 23.All this interest in Moses how would Douie Hastings and even the dreaded Brooks think.Do they start to think am I wanted or not .What do you think?

He gave up on the 2022 season 3 months in.