Wests Tigers Deep Dive of the Week

[Tigerwould]

You only need to look at the types of guys Bellamy signs. Big athletic, robust types. Not too many little fellas who can’t dominate in a tackle. He gets them in and teaches them his way. It’s an area of coaching Benji will need to address if he hopes to have a prolonged career.

We have enough play makers in the Top 30. With Bird, Latu & TDS we dont need to start the game with a ball playing 13. To win the ruck we need more of the above. Melbourne, Canberra, Warriors, Sharks, Newcastle have the big athletic types that win the ruck. I don’t see this as a big restructure to where the team is atm. It would just be 1-2 experienced mid-edge types that are proven in the wrestle.

 

[BAGNF05]

We have enough play makers in the Top 30. With Bird, Latu & TDS we dont need to start the game with a ball playing 13. To win the ruck we need more of the above. Melbourne, Canberra, Warriors, Sharks, Newcastle have the big athletic types that win the ruck. I don’t see this as a big restructure to where the team is atm. It would just be 1-2 experienced mid-edge types that are proven in the wrestle.

We are definitely at least two class forwards short. I fully expect we are working on it.

 

[Tigerwould]

We are definitely at least two class forwards short. I fully expect we are working on it.

They need to be astute buys.
If we are looking at a player like Kai Pearce-Paul (who averages 85 running metres and has a tackle efficiency of 92.6% and looks like a class edge player) I'm not sure how this helps us out in controlling the ruck and line speed.

 

[Rock Hopper Steve]

They need to be astute buys.
If we are looking at a player like Kai Pearce-Paul (who averages 85 running metres and has a tackle efficiency of 92.6% and looks like a class edge player) I'm not sure how this helps us out in controlling the ruck and line speed.

If KPP wants a move out of the knights because he's not happy there if he finds the right club his form could dramatically improve so yes sign him.
If he's just chasing bigger money than we have had our fill of these A holes so no don't sign him.
This is where we trust Richo and Benji's smarts to make the right decision.

 

[Jolls]

They need to be astute buys.
If we are looking at a player like Kai Pearce-Paul (who averages 85 running metres and has a tackle efficiency of 92.6% and looks like a class edge player) I'm not sure how this helps us out in controlling the ruck and line speed.

I sort of agree; definitely in relation to astute buys. I think the key at the moment is to look at size and strength as a factor but not be swayed too much by it. Let's face it ruck control can be taught, dominant tackles can be developed using a system to build technique and holding the player down is based on some pretty basic combative holds.

What we shoudl be looking for with players, who in addtion to being good athletes fit our system. I am certainly taking an educated guess at what traits Benji wants in the team; but I think very high, if not on top of the list, is courage and leadership. I mean more than physical bravery or giving someone a spray for not doing the right thing. It’s about resilience, commitment, and pushing through adversity for the team. It is those extra efforts: to give our defence 1/2 a second more to get set, to fight to your feet for a quick PTB, to dive on the loose ball regardless of the circumstances and a never-give-up attitude—qualities that separate good players from team players.

 

[Needaname]

Great observation and one of the key areas where we need to improve as I think it is one of the effort areas that could really make a different in thei aspect of the game.

It is more art than science though as it is one of the areas that is difficult to see from the stands/tele as we don't always hear the interaction with the officials. Did the Warriors get away with it because the ref had called a dominant tackle so they were given more leeway? If that was the case could it also be that we were trying to slow the play but our inexperience had us holding them down at the wrong time?

The dominant tackle is one of those subjective areas that some teams appear to have mastered and others fall foul of.

I’m not sure, I can’t remember the ref screaming out dominant or surrender in play since Badge was last a ref. I actually don’t think they say anything other then held, release, and too long six again.

 

[Needaname]

While they have been pretty good and are strong there is a clear difference between them and Royce Hunt and Bird when they are on the field in attack. Hunt and Bird know how to find there feet for a quick PTB. Pole is also good for a few quick PTBs whereas May and Twal tend to be caught in the defence upright and fight hard for PCM.

Not all PCM are good so this is again where relying on pure stats can be a trap. If the PCM are from bending the line and followed by a quick PTB they are good metres as the defence is in a state of dissaray, When a player is held up and is fighting hard for that extra m or so until the ref calls held the defence has already retreated and is ready for the next set; even though the PTB speed may seem OK as the clock starts from when they are held.

More often than not we come unstuck when we have retreating defence, ie the oppositon has a quick or series of quick PTBs. This is where the Warriors carved us up last week. The halves combining straight up the middle and the winger down the sideline were two classic quick PTB outcomes.

Control of the ruck is is the foundation of play on both sides of the ball - we need to get much better in this area. Get this right and all aspects of play improve.

My only criticism of May is he isn’t bending the line. But his skill isn’t tackle breaks it’s offloading before or in the line, so he creates a lot of ineffective tackles but not missed tackles. Pole on the other hand is the buster. What we need to do is be smarter with how we use both forwards. If nothing is on, give it to may something may come off it with a set line. If there is a chance of a quick play the ball on the next tackle after a bit of momentum from a previous run give it pole or hunt and we can get our backline some nice shape.
It’s not a one size fits all and both props have good and bad points in attack. We need to use that accordingly with how we attack.

 

[Needaname]

You only need to look at the types of guys Bellamy signs. Big athletic, robust types. Not too many little fellas who can’t dominate in a tackle. He gets them in and teaches them his way. It’s an area of coaching Benji will need to address if he hopes to have a prolonged career.

Alec o’donald is one guy you’re not describing. Plays every week.

 

[Jolls]

Disappointing result on the weekend; some poor officiating for sure but the Donkeys really took their chances and delivered points with some classy plays. On the upside, although we had a couple of lapses our control of the ruck was generally pretty good. I even noted Galvin and I don’t recall the other player use momentum and wrestle Payne Haas onto his back in a dominant tackle.

The Broncos have one of the best packs in the competition; however, the game was not won or lost in the middle of the field. Stats wise we won all of the key areas less PCM by 70m and PTB speed where we were .13s slower than the Donkeys. We out ran them, out kicked them, made less errors and gave away less penalties. A bounce of the ball away from Reynolds towards Bula and that was a try not scored. Two tries could have easily been called forward passes and another try probably should have been called for obstruction.

The rub of the green was not with us – this game could easily have been 30 to 28 to us (with Pole’s try). The scoreline certainly did not reflect the quality of the performance but it is footy so no use crying over spilt milk.

So, in terms of controlling the ruck – how did we fare?

Winning the contact. The stats show that we did not win this battle as we conceded 70 PCM; and had three more ineffective tackles than the Broncos. However, our tackle effectiveness was higher, at 85.36% and we had the same number of missed tackles. So while we didn’t win the contact we certainly did enough to control the middle. The key difference was Payne Haas and Pat Carrigan who had 64 and 57 PCM respectively compared to our best in Fonua Pole (42) and Alex Twal (37).

Ruck speed. Our ruck speed was only marginally slower than Brisbane’s and at 3.57 was only .05s above the NRL average for the weekend. We can’t use this statistic as anything more than a guide though as 50% of the teams that won this week had a slower PTB speed. The fastest being Canberra at 3.2s and the slowest Manly at 3.85s. Of note Melbourne’s PTB speed was 3.75s so probably indicates a less whistle happy official had that game.

An interesting stat for the Twal is a plodder brigade – 37 PCM (3 more than Terrell and 5 less than Pole with a PTB speed of 3.28s only behind Hunt (3.21), Pole (2.97) and Api (2.42)

My impression from watching the game is that we matched them in this area for the most part. Payne Haas was handled very well, despite the PCM stat. Terrell and Payne almost cancelled each other out.

Regaining control of the ruck after a line break. This is an area we still need to improve and although our scramble is pretty good we still have players that are just “doing their bit”. This is where attitude and putting your mates first comes into it. We have the odd one or two that still give up on the play when it is out of their lane. There is a fine line to tread here between overcommitting though – we just aren’t quite there but are building nicely.

So how do you think we went? Interested to hear other opinions and assessments.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

I believe the Wests Tigers demonstrated for every other team how it is possible to dismantle Brisbane Broncos within a matter of minutes. Even if it only lasted 25 mins. However we did have on our clipboard a cheat sheet in the shape and form of Galvin. The vision and balls to kick on first tackle after a set restart to us - and convert - ridiculous. It was toe 2 toe for a brief period and we were on top. It felt like an Oasis in the Sahara.

 

[Jolls]

I believe the Wests Tigers demonstrated for every other team how it is possible to dismantle Brisbane Broncos within a matter of minutes. Even if it only lasted 25 mins. However we did have on our clipboard a cheat sheet in the shape and form of Galvin. The vision and balls to kick on first tackle after a set restart to us - and convert - ridiculous. It was toe 2 toe for a brief period and we were on top. It felt like an Oasis in the Sahara.

I think you have to give some credit to Benji and Hodgo as well. They have given him the licence and confidence to have a crack and provided the plan to combat their defensive plan in their own 20. It also doesn't happen if we don't have enough go forward and speed in the ruck to have us with the momentum to do so.

There will be a few teams that will build off what we did last night to undo the Donkeys.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

Thats why Galvin will re - sign.

 

[Jolls]

Anyone have a topic they would like covered next or keen to step up and run it next week?

 

[Needaname]

Anyone have a topic they would like covered next or keen to step up and run it next week?

I’m not in a position to run it. But the controlling the ruck theme you picked seemed to evolve from a key observation from the outcome of the Warriors Loss.
Is there a key observation we could pick out of the Broncos loss that would benefit from a deep dive?

 

[Jolls]

The only thing that really jumps out at me is the depth of our defence that allowed Reynolds so much room for the chip and chase. It woul dbe diffucult to pull that together without having a fair bit of footage of our setup in depth. The Broncs obvously did their homework on it.

Personally, because it is out of my area of knoweldge, I would love to get into some depth on the sports science/sports psychology side of the house. I can certainly do some research on it - but have no depth to value add. Perhaps that could come from others input. Anyway we will see what jumps out of the woodwork.

 

[Vicious]

I will give you a tip Jolls, don’t analyse our NSW Cup Team, it will take you about three days to put all their issues into words.
But if you have your coaching qualifications, can you please contact Shane Richardson fast and apply for the job.

 

[Jolls]

I will give you a tip Jolls, don’t analyse our NSW Cup Team, it will take you about three days to put all their issues into words.
But if you have your coaching qualifications, can you please contact Shane Richardson fast and apply for the job.

It would be a dream job for me, but live too far away and I think my Grade three coaching course is a little dated - from memory I did it when I was about 15 when I started coaching U7s at our club. They have probably upgraded the qualification since then.

I wonder at the approach we are taking with KoE, it appeard from the outside to be more of a development approach than trying to win the competition. I am not very close to the Cup side watching what I can when I have the time, but some of the rotation decisions and selections seem a little odd to me. For mine, we should have pretty much settled on our next man up by now and have them playing in that postion and the same style of footy. Mason into FG as a fullback then back to cup in the halves is just one of the baffling decisions that has me wondering.

One thing I would really like to see developed, and I think someone bought this up as well last year (maybe ink) is the recruitment and development of our coaching staff. I mean we have unsuccessfully parachuted in coaches in from all over the joint. Cleary has probably been the exception where he ahd us on the up - but made some crippling recruitment decisions. Would love to get into Richos ear and see what his plans are for this area of the club.

 

[fibrodreaming]

The Broncos have one of the best packs in the competition

I enjoyed your analysis Jolls. Your posts are a must read for me.

I was just curious about your comment that the Broncos have one of the best packs in the comp.

I must confess, I usually only watch us each week, so that is the first time I have seen the Broncos play this season. Based on that viewing I thought defensively, their pack was a bit soft.

I mean, how many times in one game have two of our middles ran over the top of their middles to score next to the post? I know that Hunt’s try was disallowed because Pole had a finger-nail on his back when the grounded the ball, but that was a technicality. They couldn’t handle him close to the line.

My impression, based on one viewing, is that the Broncos are show ponies who love the razzle dazzle with ball in hand, but are not so keen on the defensive side of things.

If we can score (effectively) six tries against a full strength Broncos at home, I don’t see them as a premiership threat.

 

[AmericanHistoryX]

The only thing that really jumps out at me is the depth of our defence that allowed Reynolds so much room for the chip and chase. It woul dbe diffucult to pull that together without having a fair bit of footage of our setup in depth. The Broncs obvously did their homework on it.

Personally, because it is out of my area of knoweldge, I would love to get into some depth on the sports science/sports psychology side of the house. I can certainly do some research on it - but have no depth to value add. Perhaps that could come from others input. Anyway we will see what jumps out of the woodwork.

You gotta learn to knock on wood.

“Talent is God given. Be humble.
Fame is man-given. Be grateful.
Conceit is self-given. Be careful.”

—John Wooden, Indiana State Sycamores (1946-1948), University of California, Los Angeles (1948-1975)

Benji. This one is for you... bro'. Courtesy of Jolls.

 

[Jolls]

My impression, based on one viewing, is that the Broncos are show ponies who love the razzle dazzle with ball in hand, but are not so keen on the defensive side of things.

FD, I hear what you are saying, but, apart from the Faders putting 30 on them in their defeat on the road they have been excellent defensively. The cows crossed the line three times and the others two each so defensively they are pretty well drilled. TBH I don't think we really troubled them up the middle - they were able to control us for the most part and occasionally, through determination and a bit of cunning wer were able to get the upper hand. We scored most of our points on the edges and out wide and that matched where we wanted to attack so well done to the planners. As their pack was not really able to dominate ours on either side of the pill, although the PCM for Haas and Carrigan were higher than you would want, we were in control of our destiny for the most part.

I think we surprised them, and a lot of others, with the style of footy we chose to play. If we contine to play in this vein we have a few more wins in us yet this year. We have also not played quite the same game plan each week so Benji and Co are tailoring our plans to suit the opposition - which is also a good sign.

We aren't there yet, but when you cross the line 6 times against a permiership threat you are heading in the right direction. I know it is unusual for us to maintain parity with the Broncos pack for most of the game, so the underlying assumption is that they were a bit soft. I think we just put it to them and were able to gain superiority at times; but, as I eluded to late last week we didn't have to dominate them to win - just control them so that we can execute our plan and not play to theirs. For the most part we succeeded in doing that

We didn't have much go in our favour on the weekend, but I don't think it really matters. the boys would know that they were able to match it, and better the Broncos for much a fair part of that game. Maybe we can just start getting used to our forwards bending the line and scoring a few on occasion. The Broncos are still a good pack - we're just getting better as the season progresses. Let's jsut trust that the injury toll doesn't rise because our depth is pretty shallow.