Should we keep playing Moneyball?

Should the WT keep playing Moneyball

  • yes, more moneyball and value cap picks

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • No, get the players we want.

    Votes: 10 90.9%
  • Total voters
    11
crazycat

crazycat

Well-known member
Been thinking about this a lot.

So Moneyball is the idea of picking players who are statistically able to offer better value for the team then their monetary value.
Done out of the Athletic Baseball club, they got tired of being outbid by the larger teams. So they tried something different.

Brought players who had strange form/unusual for a cheap value.
pegged strange stat's like "on base" as this helped them win games.
Beat lost players in the average. i.e. if you have a 4.2 hitter quit for another team. upgrade 3 3.5 hitters to 3.8 hitters to "beat it in the average".

and

I don't think this works in League.
I.e. make up the average, would 3 solid 600k props replace Stef?
Our team has brought a stack of signings like Twal, Luc, that were real Moneyball picks. Yet we languish at the bottom of the table.

I feel we miss having players which are solid in their positions. If they are 100k over, sure it matters..But we get a player that is a key starter on the field.
Lets stop playing Moneyball.
 
crazycat said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

So Moneyball is the idea of picking players who are statistically able to offer better value for the team then their monetary value.
Done out of the Athletic Baseball club, they got tired of being outbid by the larger teams. So they tried something different.

Brought players who had strange form/unusual for a cheap value.
pegged strange stat's like "on base" as this helped them win games.
Beat lost players in the average. i.e. if you have a 4.2 hitter quit for another team. upgrade 3 3.5 hitters to 3.8 hitters to "beat it in the average".

and

I don't think this works in League.
I.e. make up the average, would 3 solid 600k props replace Stef?
Our team has brought a stack of signings like Twal, Luc, that were real Moneyball picks. Yet we languish at the bottom of the table.

I feel we miss having players which are solid in their positions. If they are 100k over, sure it matters..But we get a player that is a key starter on the field.
Lets stop playing Moneyball.
Click to expand...
Read the entire book - it only got the Oakland As to the playoffs as underdogs - and NEVER close to an actual MLB Championship!

"Moneyball" is not and has never been proffered as a method which applied to any other sport - or is a means to building to a Championship.

It was all about a cash-strapped franchise trying to build a competitive team to gain traction and support in their own waning local market - and is entirely reliant on objective numerable stats that are specific to the game of baseball like RBIs etc...

en.wikipedia.org

Baseball statistics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

That is the main reason it has NEVER been adopted by any other professional sport or franchise - because there is more to recruitment than raw stats!

FURTHERMORE - the entire precept of Moneyball is entirely irrelevant to the NRL where the salary cap is fully-funded by the governing body - so scouting and recruitment is all about identifying and developing talent! NOT any stats in irrelevant junior competitions!

AND FINALLY - the Oakland As have not won a Championship since they adopted AND rejected the "Moneyball" approach...

And their owner is moving them to Las Vegas next year....

So the actual final outcome of "MONEYBALL" was zero silverware and relocation.

Please read the book if you want to misquote the concept!
 
crazycat said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

So Moneyball is the idea of picking players who are statistically able to offer better value for the team then their monetary value.
Done out of the Athletic Baseball club, they got tired of being outbid by the larger teams. So they tried something different.

Brought players who had strange form/unusual for a cheap value.
pegged strange stat's like "on base" as this helped them win games.
Beat lost players in the average. i.e. if you have a 4.2 hitter quit for another team. upgrade 3 3.5 hitters to 3.8 hitters to "beat it in the average".

and

I don't think this works in League.
I.e. make up the average, would 3 solid 600k props replace Stef?
Our team has brought a stack of signings like Twal, Luc, that were real Moneyball picks. Yet we languish at the bottom of the table.

I feel we miss having players which are solid in their positions. If they are 100k over, sure it matters..But we get a player that is a key starter on the field.
Lets stop playing Moneyball.
Click to expand...
NOONE is playing "MONEYBALL"!!

You don't understand how "Moneyball" works - and how it only applies to baseball!

It is about balancing a salary cap - and NOONE has done that professionally for the Tigers for the past 10 years+!!

Luai is evidently not a Moneyball signing by any misconception of the term!!
 
crazycat said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

So Moneyball is the idea of picking players who are statistically able to offer better value for the team then their monetary value.
Done out of the Athletic Baseball club, they got tired of being outbid by the larger teams. So they tried something different.

Brought players who had strange form/unusual for a cheap value.
pegged strange stat's like "on base" as this helped them win games.
Beat lost players in the average. i.e. if you have a 4.2 hitter quit for another team. upgrade 3 3.5 hitters to 3.8 hitters to "beat it in the average".

and

I don't think this works in League.
I.e. make up the average, would 3 solid 600k props replace Stef?
Our team has brought a stack of signings like Twal, Luc, that were real Moneyball picks. Yet we languish at the bottom of the table.

I feel we miss having players which are solid in their positions. If they are 100k over, sure it matters..But we get a player that is a key starter on the field.
Lets stop playing Moneyball.
Click to expand...
Twal and Luc were not money ball picks. There is/was no value there, they were/are overpaid.

I think we need to sign “average” first graders on between $250k to $400k who can play to a league average standard for 24 games a year. We need 6 to 8 (new) of these types of players in our squad. We need to progress from being terrible to average or below average. Our more talented players will be able to play better with solid players around them. Plus it will make recruitment and retention easier in future years.

Too often we’re are going for stars when we need strengthening across the park (roster). Our squad is so bad it’s very hard for one or two new players to make a noticeable difference.
 
Snidest 0 said:
NOONE is playing "MONEYBALL"!!

You don't understand how "Moneyball" works - and how it only applies to baseball!

It is about balancing a salary cap - and NOONE has done that professionally for the Tigers for the past 10 years+!!

Luai is evidently not a Moneyball signing by any misconception of the term!!
Click to expand...
Yes, Luai and our offers to M Moses were not Moneyball style signings.

The rest though, seemed to be to maximise some statistical value.
 
Wiz said:
Twal and Luc were not money ball picks. There is/was no value there, they were/are overpaid.
Click to expand...
Luc was under market value from memory (when he played for us). Clearly he is above market value NOW asking for 900k a season. Based of Dragons form, his signing is working for them.

The original contract for Twal was a cheapie as well. (ok his latest contract... I have no idea).
Wiz said:
I think we need to sign “average” first graders on between $250k to $400k who can play to a league average standard for 24 games a year. We need 6 to 8 (new) of these types of players in our squad. We need to progress from being terrible to average or below average. Our more talented players will be able to play better with solid players around them. Plus it will make recruitment and retention easier in future years.

Too often we’re are going for stars when we need strengthening across the park (roster). Our squad is so bad it’s very hard for one or two new players to make a noticeable difference.
Click to expand...
Yea, but it is those 250k Fringe grader signings we should avoid.

Get players that play and put in for the starting 17.
 
As mentioned earlier ..WT pay overs AND always offer players longer contracts than they should to entice players to sign … this means that you end up with an old player that you are overpaying the last year or two of their contracts not providing value …

No moneyball happening at WT
 
crazycat said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

So Moneyball is the idea of picking players who are statistically able to offer better value for the team then their monetary value.
Done out of the Athletic Baseball club, they got tired of being outbid by the larger teams. So they tried something different.

Brought players who had strange form/unusual for a cheap value.
pegged strange stat's like "on base" as this helped them win games.
Beat lost players in the average. i.e. if you have a 4.2 hitter quit for another team. upgrade 3 3.5 hitters to 3.8 hitters to "beat it in the average".

and

I don't think this works in League.
I.e. make up the average, would 3 solid 600k props replace Stef?
Our team has brought a stack of signings like Twal, Luc, that were real Moneyball picks. Yet we languish at the bottom of the table.

I feel we miss having players which are solid in their positions. If they are 100k over, sure it matters..But we get a player that is a key starter on the field.
Lets stop playing Moneyball.
Click to expand...

We have never played moneyball if anything over the years we have done the complete opposite.

To play moneyball you need a very good coaching structure to build a gameplan around the constraints and strengths of the playing group whilst being very committed to the structured intent. You also build a squad base which we haven’t done. We have never been smart enough.

We have won the spoon the last 2yrs on track for a 3rd. Results wise we haven’t improved on last year. Any signings we have made the last 3yrs including Api have made zero positive improvement to the win column.

Our fringe players & majority of our good players are over priced.
 
Snidest 0 said:
Read the entire book - it only got the Oakland As to the playoffs as underdogs - and NEVER close to an actual MLB Championship!

"Moneyball" is not and has never been proffered as a method which applied to any other sport - or is a means to building to a Championship.

It was all about a cash-strapped franchise trying to build a competitive team to gain traction and support in their own waning local market - and is entirely reliant on objective numerable stats that are specific to the game of baseball like RBIs etc...

en.wikipedia.org

Baseball statistics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

That is the main reason it has NEVER been adopted by any other professional sport or franchise - because there is more to recruitment than raw stats!

FURTHERMORE - the entire precept of Moneyball is entirely irrelevant to the NRL where the salary cap is fully-funded by the governing body - so scouting and recruitment is all about identifying and developing talent! NOT any stats in irrelevant junior competitions!

AND FINALLY - the Oakland As have not won a Championship since they adopted AND rejected the "Moneyball" approach...

And their owner is moving them to Las Vegas next year....

So the actual final outcome of "MONEYBALL" was zero silverware and relocation.

Please read the book if you want to misquote the concept!
Click to expand...
Oakland is a hole and the best part of it is crossing H80 into San Francisco.
 
We need to have a well balanced cap. Meaning our people responsible for recruitment and retention need to more accurately assess a players value based on what he brings to the team.
If your $400k prop has more value to the team than your $800k prop then you are creating problems.
For example, if as reported we offered Brooks $550k and following his refusal we signed Bud for the same amount and after a handful of games we shop Bud. If true, it’s so uninspiring for me as a die hard fan, but I can only imagine how it may effect the hearts and minds of the players?
 
Money ball?
crazycat said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

So Moneyball is the idea of picking players who are statistically able to offer better value for the team then their monetary value.
Done out of the Athletic Baseball club, they got tired of being outbid by the larger teams. So they tried something different.

Brought players who had strange form/unusual for a cheap value.
pegged strange stat's like "on base" as this helped them win games.
Beat lost players in the average. i.e. if you have a 4.2 hitter quit for another team. upgrade 3 3.5 hitters to 3.8 hitters to "beat it in the average".

and

I don't think this works in League.
I.e. make up the average, would 3 solid 600k props replace Stef?
Our team has brought a stack of signings like Twal, Luc, that were real Moneyball picks. Yet we languish at the bottom of the table.

I feel we miss having players which are solid in their positions. If they are 100k over, sure it matters..But we get a player that is a key starter on the field.
Lets stop playing Moneyball.
Click to expand...
In fact. Lets start playing money ball.
 
For mine, moneyball is more myth than reality.

In league you either acquire talent from another club or develop talent.

Acquiring talent is usually expensive. Unless you can offer a player a good opportunity to win a premiership or play origin, you'll pay overs for (usually) second-rate or busted up players.

Which leaves you the option of developing talent. A big junior development program helps along with good recruitment people who can spot the guys who are good, but not the obvious next superstar.

But also having a clear pathway for a young guy to make first grade debut in a few years or two is a big selling point for parents. I'm assuming this is why we're clearing out the decks?
 
Nonotmeagain said:
Oakland is a hole and the best part of it is crossing H80 into San Francisco.
Click to expand...
Yep - and a TINY market for any professional team!

That is why "Moneyball" has been mythologised as a successful re-invention of the franchise!

Raiders gone to Vegas - now the Athletics...

Also a major reason the Warriors pissed off to Mission Bay.
 
weststigerman said:
We tried moneyball when Ivan was here.

Prior to 2024 we’ve just signed players who were available and willing to join the club, not targeting positions or players.
Click to expand...
Bullshit - stop using a term you don't understand!!

How the %#$%% was Josh Reynolds on massive overs any semblance of buying a bargain player due to stats???
 
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