ARLC scraps anthem

[twentyforty]

I think at some point some players will need to choose between identity politics and footy? We had an insight into the future during the recent SoO series where players were stood down for not playing to their ability in protest.
I am concerned that identity politics will become more invasive in our sport. As Ryan James put it..”There are a lot of other things that have happened in the background but as footy players we have a voice and we want to get a few little wins before the big wins happen.”
I suppose the next protest will be about Australia Day?

 

[OzLuke]

I think at some point some players will need to choose between identity politics and footy? We had an insight into the future during the recent SoO series where players were stood down for not playing to their ability in protest.
I am concerned that identity politics will become more invasive in our sport. As Ryan James put it..”There are a lot of other things that have happened in the background but as footy players we have a voice and we want to get a few little wins before the big wins happen.”
I suppose the next protest will be about Australia Day?

majority of people already have their opinions one way or the other and footy players not singing the anthem won't change the minds of anybody.

 

[hugh1954]

Hypocrisy at its worst is the league going to play the national anthem at international games and will certain players refuse to stand at the game if they are picked

 

[Go_You_Good_Things]

The National Anthem arguments are dumb. It should only be played when two countries face off or a national day of significance ie Anzac Day.

But isn't this discussion about a certain race not singing the anthem ? So that won't change if it's a match of significance or not. They won't be singing on Anzac day mate.

Yet many aboriginal Australians volunteers served their nation in major wars and disembarked to so often be treated very differently to their service brothers in arms upon returning across our wide land. This occurred in many ways, including segregation (apartheid) and not being able to vote until about half way through our nation's involvement in the Vietnam war. This is not ancient history, as I am now 54 and as with the above, even first contact with some remote indigenous peoples has occurred during my time.

If you are going to bring up prejudices against the indigenous, then I think it only fair that I bring up the prejudices for the indigenous. If you have the time to read the list, I will find out all the entitlements . . . from 100% indigenous, all the way down to 1/128th part indigenous. I will have to find out everything they are entitled to, because I am unaware of the full list of handouts, because, well, I'm not indigenous.
That's not racist, is it ?

I wonder why those programs exist?

Programs, assuming they offer some sort of development, are a great thing.
I didn't mention programs, and so wonder why you focus on that ?
I said "handouts" and "entitlements".

 

[TheDaBoss]

hey i got a idea

how about we just get Fergie To cover our anthem..taht way no one will listen

 

[Go_You_Good_Things]

The National Anthem arguments are dumb. It should only be played when two countries face off or a national day of significance ie Anzac Day.

But isn't this discussion about a certain race not singing the anthem ? So that won't change if it's a match of significance or not. They won't be singing on Anzac day mate.

Yet many aboriginal Australians volunteers served their nation in major wars and disembarked to so often be treated very differently to their service brothers in arms upon returning across our wide land. This occurred in many ways, including segregation (apartheid) and not being able to vote until about half way through our nation's involvement in the Vietnam war. This is not ancient history, as I am now 54 and as with the above, even first contact with some remote indigenous peoples has occurred during my time.

If you are going to bring up prejudices against the indigenous, then I think it only fair that I bring up the prejudices for the indigenous. If you have the time to read the list, I will find out all the entitlements . . . from 100% indigenous, all the way down to 1/128th part indigenous. I will have to find out everything they are entitled to, because I am unaware of the full list of handouts, because, well, I'm not indigenous.
That's not racist, is it ?

I don't think it's racist, but I think it ignores the many disadvantages that Indigenous people have endured and continue to endure. Maybe that last part is contentious but I think everyone (including the government) has acknowledged significant mistreatment of the past which continues to have ramifications today. I suppose your point would be valid if these policies had somehow created some Indigenous elite class which ruled it over all of us. Unfortunately, the reality is nothing like that.

Watersider . . . if I had the same handouts and entitlements as indigenous folks . . . . I'd have another couple of investment properties. The TAB and pub still wouldn't recognise me, either. These handouts are racism in its purest form. Giving a clear and distinct advantage to only one particular race. What happened 100 years ago was probably well intentioned by the govt of the time.
How do we apologise for something our generation had absolutely nothing to do with ?
Do we apologise for something that happened when we were 5yrs old ? . . . something that our grandfathers might have lived through ? our great grandfathers ? . . . our great great grandfathers ? . . . and so on.
My folks migrated here in the 50's and were called wogs. Day and night. I went to school and was called a wog. My lunch was apparently "wog food", and stunk.
Did we sit and do nothing but ask for handouts ? No, we just got on with it.
That was a major disadvantage that we had to endure . . . but we got jack shit from the government. Generally, we didn't ask for it because it was stupid to think we deserved it just because we were of a particular race.
Do we feel bad what happened to the native people 220 years ago ? yes, but thats how it was at the time.
Do we feel bad about the "stolen generation" ? firstly, ask why they were "stolen". If the answer is because mum and dad were alcoholics, or 14 yrs old, or just couldn't bring up children . . . then we shouldn't feel too bad. The authorities at the time did what was seen as appropriate at the time.But importantly, it was 70 years ago. You can't apply the social morality of today against 1950's Australia.
If "waterside" means that you live by the water . . . tell me how quickly you'd give up your house if an indigenous tribe walked up and said your whole street is "secret women's business" and needs to be returned to the original owners as compensation for what the first fleet did ? Please tell me.

 

[Don Kershane]

Don't think alcoholism was a factor kids being taken from their families in those days. No "handouts" as you call them to pay for grog. The problems with alcohol started when families broken up. Names changed, abused in institutions , told their parents had died ,etc etc etc .

 

[twentyforty]

There are a few Australians whose forefathers/mothers were thrown in leg irons after being sentenced to this land for life. There crime?stealing a chook to feed their starving family. And no, their families did not get passage here.
They were treated harshly with regular punishment. Australia became known as a resourceful and courageous country on the back of these people, these convicts who built roads and other infrastructure. They weren’t negative about previous times. They accepted it for what it was, the past, and moved forward. The descendants of these so called convicts don’t spend their lives complaint about terrible treatment of previous generations.

 

[mike]

My personal opinion on this is that the National Anthem should only be played when the Australian team plays or a team is representing our country. I’m glad it’s no longer being played for the Indigenous round. They should also scrap it for all other non Test Matches. Maybe an exception for the Anzac round.

 

[BirchgroveTigers]

lol whats the bet "go you good thing" can't name a single "hand-out" (hint - they dont exist).

Our gov has obviously spent money on trying to fix social problems in indigenous communities - that don't mean they get anything for free (another hint - we stole a friggin country - it's us brits that took shit for free).

 

[Tim Sheens]

There are a few Australians whose forefathers/mothers were thrown in leg irons after being sentenced to this land for life. There crime?stealing a chook to feed their starving family. And no, their families did not get passage here.
They were treated harshly with regular punishment. Australia became known as a resourceful and courageous country on the back of these people, these convicts who built roads and other infrastructure. They weren’t negative about previous times. They accepted it for what it was, the past, and moved forward. The descendants of these so called convicts don’t spend their lives complaint about terrible treatment of previous generations.

Sure, but many of those same convicts were given grants of land by the British government after it's inhabitants were either killed or moved on with the threat of being killed. Mid last century they granted people a whole country that they took from others.

 

[Tim Sheens]

The National Anthem arguments are dumb. It should only be played when two countries face off or a national day of significance ie Anzac Day.

But isn't this discussion about a certain race not singing the anthem ? So that won't change if it's a match of significance or not. They won't be singing on Anzac day mate.

Yet many aboriginal Australians volunteers served their nation in major wars and disembarked to so often be treated very differently to their service brothers in arms upon returning across our wide land. This occurred in many ways, including segregation (apartheid) and not being able to vote until about half way through our nation's involvement in the Vietnam war. This is not ancient history, as I am now 54 and as with the above, even first contact with some remote indigenous peoples has occurred during my time.

If you are going to bring up prejudices against the indigenous, then I think it only fair that I bring up the prejudices for the indigenous. If you have the time to read the list, I will find out all the entitlements . . . from 100% indigenous, all the way down to 1/128th part indigenous. I will have to find out everything they are entitled to, because I am unaware of the full list of handouts, because, well, I'm not indigenous.
That's not racist, is it ?

I don't think it's racist, but I think it ignores the many disadvantages that Indigenous people have endured and continue to endure. Maybe that last part is contentious but I think everyone (including the government) has acknowledged significant mistreatment of the past which continues to have ramifications today. I suppose your point would be valid if these policies had somehow created some Indigenous elite class which ruled it over all of us. Unfortunately, the reality is nothing like that.

Watersider . . . if I had the same handouts and entitlements as indigenous folks . . . . I'd have another couple of investment properties. The TAB and pub still wouldn't recognise me, either. These handouts are racism in its purest form. Giving a clear and distinct advantage to only one particular race. What happened 100 years ago was probably well intentioned by the govt of the time.
How do we apologise for something our generation had absolutely nothing to do with ?
Do we apologise for something that happened when we were 5yrs old ? . . . something that our grandfathers might have lived through ? our great grandfathers ? . . . our great great grandfathers ? . . . and so on.
My folks migrated here in the 50's and were called wogs. Day and night. I went to school and was called a wog. My lunch was apparently "wog food", and stunk.
Did we sit and do nothing but ask for handouts ? No, we just got on with it.
That was a major disadvantage that we had to endure . . . but we got jack shit from the government. Generally, we didn't ask for it because it was stupid to think we deserved it just because we were of a particular race.
Do we feel bad what happened to the native people 220 years ago ? yes, but thats how it was at the time.
Do we feel bad about the "stolen generation" ? firstly, ask why they were "stolen". If the answer is because mum and dad were alcoholics, or 14 yrs old, or just couldn't bring up children . . . then we shouldn't feel too bad. The authorities at the time did what was seen as appropriate at the time.But importantly, it was 70 years ago. You can't apply the social morality of today against 1950's Australia.
If "waterside" means that you live by the water . . . tell me how quickly you'd give up your house if an indigenous tribe walked up and said your whole street is "secret women's business" and needs to be returned to the original owners as compensation for what the first fleet did ? Please tell me.

Quite odd that you think these people were getting a fair go, when your newly arrived folks could quickly get citizenship and vote, yet people with lineages that dated back tens of thousands of years on this land had no say in their own lives at all for another decade or more. Getting called a dog, which I have always found deplorable pales in significance to the abuses these people suffered long after your folks arrival.

 

[gallagher]

lol whats the bet "go you good thing" can't name a single "hand-out" (hint - they dont exist).

Our gov has obviously spent money on trying to fix social problems in indigenous communities - that don't mean they get anything for free (another hint - we stole a friggin country - it's us brits that took shit for free).

Us Britts?

 

[watersider]

The National Anthem arguments are dumb. It should only be played when two countries face off or a national day of significance ie Anzac Day.

But isn't this discussion about a certain race not singing the anthem ? So that won't change if it's a match of significance or not. They won't be singing on Anzac day mate.

Yet many aboriginal Australians volunteers served their nation in major wars and disembarked to so often be treated very differently to their service brothers in arms upon returning across our wide land. This occurred in many ways, including segregation (apartheid) and not being able to vote until about half way through our nation's involvement in the Vietnam war. This is not ancient history, as I am now 54 and as with the above, even first contact with some remote indigenous peoples has occurred during my time.

If you are going to bring up prejudices against the indigenous, then I think it only fair that I bring up the prejudices for the indigenous. If you have the time to read the list, I will find out all the entitlements . . . from 100% indigenous, all the way down to 1/128th part indigenous. I will have to find out everything they are entitled to, because I am unaware of the full list of handouts, because, well, I'm not indigenous.
That's not racist, is it ?

I don't think it's racist, but I think it ignores the many disadvantages that Indigenous people have endured and continue to endure. Maybe that last part is contentious but I think everyone (including the government) has acknowledged significant mistreatment of the past which continues to have ramifications today. I suppose your point would be valid if these policies had somehow created some Indigenous elite class which ruled it over all of us. Unfortunately, the reality is nothing like that.

Watersider . . . if I had the same handouts and entitlements as indigenous folks . . . . I'd have another couple of investment properties. The TAB and pub still wouldn't recognise me, either. These handouts are racism in its purest form. Giving a clear and distinct advantage to only one particular race. What happened 100 years ago was probably well intentioned by the govt of the time.
How do we apologise for something our generation had absolutely nothing to do with ?
Do we apologise for something that happened when we were 5yrs old ? . . . something that our grandfathers might have lived through ? our great grandfathers ? . . . our great great grandfathers ? . . . and so on.
My folks migrated here in the 50's and were called wogs. Day and night. I went to school and was called a wog. My lunch was apparently "wog food", and stunk.
Did we sit and do nothing but ask for handouts ? No, we just got on with it.
That was a major disadvantage that we had to endure . . . but we got jack shit from the government. Generally, we didn't ask for it because it was stupid to think we deserved it just because we were of a particular race.
Do we feel bad what happened to the native people 220 years ago ? yes, but thats how it was at the time.
Do we feel bad about the "stolen generation" ? firstly, ask why they were "stolen". If the answer is because mum and dad were alcoholics, or 14 yrs old, or just couldn't bring up children . . . then we shouldn't feel too bad. The authorities at the time did what was seen as appropriate at the time.But importantly, it was 70 years ago. You can't apply the social morality of today against 1950's Australia.
If "waterside" means that you live by the water . . . tell me how quickly you'd give up your house if an indigenous tribe walked up and said your whole street is "secret women's business" and needs to be returned to the original owners as compensation for what the first fleet did ? Please tell me.

This is difficult because people want to talk about the history of Australia and the Indigenous people, but don't have enough interest to read anything or look into it. We're not talking about 70 years ago when we talk about the Stolen Generation. There are more than 17 000 survivors today:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-15/stolen-generations-study-impact-of-intergenerational-trauma/10118132

I don't think anyone on the political spectrum would defend the stolen generation policies, as you seem to have done here. I really think you're not well-informed on those issues and you should look into a little harder. Maybe start with the report which triggered discussion around an apology:

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/pdf/social_justice/bringing_them_home_report.pdf

But our history is littered with this. Take our revered governor Macquarie's words in 1816:

'“On any occasion of seeing or falling in with the Natives, either in Bodies or Singly, they are to be called upon, by your friendly Native Guides, to surrender themselves to you as Prisoners of War. If they refuse to do so, make the least show of resistance, or attempt to run away from you, you will fire upon and compel them to surrender, breaking and destroying the Spears, Clubs and Waddies of all those you take Prisoners. Such natives as happen to be killed on such occasions, if grown up men, are to be hanged up on Trees in Conspicuous Situations, to Strike the Survivors with the greater terror.”

So progressive and effective in buildings and treatment of convicts but he sanctions here the killing and hanging up of Indigenous people to scare the Indigenous from their land. We have statues for Macquarie, lakes, universities, regions named after him and nothing to commemorate the massacre on 17th April 1816. We haven't done a good job of either knowing our history or addressing it. It's not against being proud or patriotic, but if one does feel pride in our country shouldn't the country's actual history be of value?

Stories of people forcibly removed from their homes, denied freedom of movement, forced into cheap labour, abused and exploited dominate the Indigenous experience of colonisation. The festering trauma from this isn't a quik fix, the resentment still lingers and is compounded by the lack of acknowledgement. This isn't the distant past, these are present issues:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-11/andrew-scipione-apologises-to-families-of-bowraville-children/7721492

Separately, and much less importantly, 'Watersider' is taken from the 'Balmain Watersiders' name. I don't live near the water. I don't think Latrell Mitchell is protesting because he wants your house, I think it is about acknowledgement and a desire for better more inclusive policy development that give Indigenous people a more active role and that better address issues around continuing inequality. Your frustration with the ineffectiveness of welfare for Indigenous people is shared by Indigenous people:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/oct/21/noel-pearson-hits-out-at-political-parties-for-welfare-reform-failure

The argument by Indigenous people isn't for more money. It's frustration about policy which disempowers and is ineffective and even harmful.

 

[watersider]

To me it’s not the use or overuse that’s the issue. It’s that yet again we appease the loud voice. I won’t be watching.
Maybe I could protest about ‘welcome to country’ being rammed down my throat at every opening of an envelope

The event has lost me as a viewer. It's just divisive bulldust to me.

100% agree and it’s just a pity that these young indigenous players are too naive to realise they are being used as pawns in a game. A game that is creating ill will that does not need to exist

Mate it’s not just indigenous. It’s LGBT , women’s movement , various ethnicities, religious sects . Political parties , anti Vaxers , climate change .etc.
Just by simply asking the question . How come you’re considered racist ,prejudice , homophobe ,climate denier .... just because you believe everyone should be included . It just leads to perpetual screaming matches where the info goes straight over everyone’s head. Zero desire for common ground and true reconciliation. Everyone wasn’t thier time in the sun . And because it this , it becomes a war of attrition , where any ground lost or won , however trivial ,is considered a Huge victory or defeat.
Unfortunately the inmates have started to get control of the asylum.

I think that argument is like saying people who want lower levels of migration in Australia are racist or wrong because there are also right wing racist nationalists who make that argument. You have to take arguments and people as they are, not try and group them with others and dismiss them all. Both the left and the right do this sort of generalising and dismissing of arguments too often (as racist or prejudicial on the right, and as socialist PC on the left), this is what gets people upset. We're not talking about LGBTQI, feminism, 'various ethnicities', religious groups, anti-vaxers; we're talking about the Indigenous protest of the national anthem and they have valid reasons for protesting. The merit of the other protests isn't something I know about and I don't think it's relevant to this protest. Better to avoid generalising.

Also . This isn't an argument mate . It's a huge cultural shift that has plenty of smarter people than me extremely worried. People like Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. And like most things , as you said , a lot of it originated in the US. The lack of intelligent debate , replaced with grotesque accusations that distort any truth . And both those dudes are highly controversial. I don't agree with everything they say , but the desire for true freedom of speech is 1 of them .
Only through conversation and learning can we ever hope to evolve. This swings both ways. Aboriginals and leftists need to understand , some of these things are important to many people , despite the atrocities that happened to them.
It has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt that it's extremely rare for anybody to truely care about anyone else outside of Thier existence. You can have a strong view on concepts sure , but I mean actually care. This would be crippling if it was so . To have the empathy to mourn everyone else's loss.
So how can anyone just assume that because they've had a tough go , that people will care . And should care ? It's not realistic . This is where these movements fall down . They're missing this fundamental fact . Which is basic empathy is hugely important . But everyone just has the "my stuff is more important than your stuff " idea. And around and around we go .

Either freedom of speech is allowed, and these Indigenous athletes are allowed to protest, or it isn't and they should sing the anthem. If you don't like their reasons, they still have a right to protest, that's the nature of freedom of speech. Whether this is good for the nation or bad isn't really a factor in this. Whether this is part of a 'bigger cultural movement' or not isn't a reason to stop them protesting.

I knew of Jordan Peterson, I ooked up Sam Harris. I don't know that Peterson would say Indigenous don't have a right to protest, I think his whole thing is being able to have freedom of expression, right? But I wish we had fewer Americans in our conversations, and our issues in Australia are complex and interesting enough that we can stick to commentators and opinions from our own country, unless they offer some particular insights on Indigenous Australian concerns?

 

[Russell]

Just to put some perspective on this discussion:

Numbers of Aboriginal children stolen can only be roughly estimated. It is estimated that between 1883 and 1969 more than 6,200 children were stolen in NSW alone.

A 1994 survey by the Australian Bureau of Statistics stated that one in every ten (10%) Aboriginal people aged over 25 had been removed from their families in childhood, a figure which seems to be confirmed by research since the Bringing Them Home Report. Australia-wide numbers are in the tens of thousands.

If you apply this proportion to the 2011 Census figures of the Aboriginal population you'll get around 14,700 Stolen Generation members for that year. Considering those with immediate family who had been removed, an additional 160,000 Aboriginal people are directly affected by the policies of the Stolen Generations.

Conversely:

In the five decades up to 1982, the newborn babies of young, single white women were forcibly removed from them for adoption, a practice sometimes called 'baby farming'. Mothers were drugged, tethered to beds, not allowed to see their babies, told they were dead. Many of these adoptions occurred after the mothers were sent away by their families due to the stigma associated with being pregnant and unmarried.

More than 250,000 white mothers lost their babies to forcible removal at birth by these past illegal adoption practices. Groups such as Adoption Loss Adult Support and Apology Alliance offer help and support.

I find the figures Interesting and very little is ever said about the "White" stolen generation.

 

[twentyforty]

There are a few Australians whose forefathers/mothers were thrown in leg irons after being sentenced to this land for life. There crime?stealing a chook to feed their starving family. And no, their families did not get passage here.
They were treated harshly with regular punishment. Australia became known as a resourceful and courageous country on the back of these people, these convicts who built roads and other infrastructure. They weren’t negative about previous times. They accepted it for what it was, the past, and moved forward. The descendants of these so called convicts don’t spend their lives complaint about terrible treatment of previous generations.

Sure, but many of those same convicts were given grants of land by the British government after it's inhabitants were either killed or moved on with the threat of being killed. Mid last century they granted people a whole country that they took from others.

Former, I don’t want to go into a discussion on who was more harshly done by, I just wanted to point out that they were hard times for everyone. Particularly the Chinese prospectors. The Aboriginals would eat them. It was a tough time.

 

[watersider]

To me it’s not the use or overuse that’s the issue. It’s that yet again we appease the loud voice. I won’t be watching.
Maybe I could protest about ‘welcome to country’ being rammed down my throat at every opening of an envelope

The event has lost me as a viewer. It's just divisive bulldust to me.

100% agree and it’s just a pity that these young indigenous players are too naive to realise they are being used as pawns in a game. A game that is creating ill will that does not need to exist

Mate it’s not just indigenous. It’s LGBT , women’s movement , various ethnicities, religious sects . Political parties , anti Vaxers , climate change .etc.
Just by simply asking the question . How come you’re considered racist ,prejudice , homophobe ,climate denier .... just because you believe everyone should be included . It just leads to perpetual screaming matches where the info goes straight over everyone’s head. Zero desire for common ground and true reconciliation. Everyone wasn’t thier time in the sun . And because it this , it becomes a war of attrition , where any ground lost or won , however trivial ,is considered a Huge victory or defeat.
Unfortunately the inmates have started to get control of the asylum.

I think that argument is like saying people who want lower levels of migration in Australia are racist or wrong because there are also right wing racist nationalists who make that argument. You have to take arguments and people as they are, not try and group them with others and dismiss them all. Both the left and the right do this sort of generalising and dismissing of arguments too often (as racist or prejudicial on the right, and as socialist PC on the left), this is what gets people upset. We're not talking about LGBTQI, feminism, 'various ethnicities', religious groups, anti-vaxers; we're talking about the Indigenous protest of the national anthem and they have valid reasons for protesting. The merit of the other protests isn't something I know about and I don't think it's relevant to this protest. Better to avoid generalising.


? Pardon ? I don't follow . You've done exactly what I said people do , and projected your own ideas on to what I said . And not actually read my point. Way to go ! This is what I've been saying . Nothing gets heard . It's all just noise in the atmosphere. And now you dismiss this idea and notion , that the search for common ground is becoming a waste of time. It is all linked .
People are tribalistic by nature , and with social media , it has become extremely easy for everybody to find Thier applicable echo chamber . My point is directly related to a larger cultural issue where common ground is impossible to find . Of which , the anthem is just 1 of many issues .

Right, I see. You'd like to see people strive for common ground and not be so divisive? I thought you were saying something like 'all these fruit loops are protesting, it has to stop' but I see now you were arguing for more community spirit. That's good. I guess the Indigenous RL players don't feel connected to the community. That's a shame. I think we can work harder to include them. I think even if that fails and even if we feel like we're doing enough and we can't understand why they're still protesting, we still have to accept their right to protest. And doing so makes our community stronger, because people know they have a voice and are accepted and are allowed to say things which are challenging and still be a part of it. I don't know, I think I share your hope for a stronger community and I get where you're coming from there, but part of taking responsibility, which Peterson preaches, is also arguing for things people believe in. You don't just accept the way things are, you actively struggle for and support the causes you believe in. So to flip it a bit, you can see this protest as a sign of their strength and also a sign of the health of our community that they can do it.

 

[bptiger]

They should just scrap the game, and tell them to take there bat and ball and go home.

 

[Tiger_Steve]

Lets shut this thread down now lads,so far its been fairly civil for such a divisive topic, the only thing that happens from here is the idiot fringe, from both sides get involved.
Respect their right to protest, think that they are wrong, won't be watching it.


You want to stop discussion? Fair enough. But remember today they come after your anthem , tomorrow they’ll come after your t bone steak mate.

They vegans as well??? Gawd