Coronavirus Outbreak

[Tiger5150]

Reading this thread makes me think that Occam's razor has been thrown out or otherwise modified to: "forget the simplest explanation, it's the freaking lizard people taking over!"

Simplest explanation to me is that it was a virus being modified from a lab.
Question is, was it released deliberately..

And how nice to belittle people with comments such as 'lizard people' taking over.
Paint everyone with the same brush. I must be a Alex Jones or David Icke supper right because I go against mainstream views on a subject?

Do you have any proof of this ? Is this the first pandemic or epidemic mankind has suffered from ? Were these viruses always produced via labs ?

If you don't have any proof have you thought about getting mental health counseling ? If you continue to believe stuff without proof and with proof against what you are stating do you believe that means there is some mental health issue at play ?

Another demeaning statement regarding mental health.

So disguised swearing isn't allowed, but belittle others with disdainful statements like that is somewhat fine.

Viruses are studied, modified & experimented with all the time in virology labs. How hard is it to comprehend that?

So you don't have any proof to back up your loony tunes theory ? Geez that is a surprise.

You probably have a point. It's probably wrong to put people that have mental health illnesses in the same category as people like yourself. You have real problems with accepting reality but that it isn't fair to state that people who suffer from depression for instance are as delusional as what you are.

Maybe I should change my approach. You create and believe in crazy theories because you have an inability to think rationally and logically.

Still - answer the question. Where is your proof ?

Someone mentioned Occam's razor.
So I provided my conclusion of the simplest explanation.

So tell me, what type of things do they deal with in Virology labs?
Is it illogical to think a virus can be leaked from a lab?

That illogical that it must be a "loony tunes theory"..
Yeah ok mate..

Maybe your breathing in too much carbon dioxide with that mask.

This is such a load of palava and this goes for all these crazy theories that is was created in a lab.

Serious question Earl. What makes the theory that an effective gain of function coronavirus that contains bat and pangolin RNA/DNA could have escaped from the Lab that publishes its research into gain of function coronaviruses of bats and pangolins that is in the geographic centre of the outbreak and that had previously had significant biosecurity breaches less than two years earlier.........crazy?


The most logical explanation is like numerous viruses in the past it migrated from animals to humans via eating animal products. This has happened multiple times previously and it will probably happen again.

Most logical? In what way? Please explain your logically pathway that results in a gain of function bat/pangolin hybrid virus and explain why it is ***more*** logical than it leaving a lab that specialises in exactly that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

So does anyone have any proof regarding the lab hypothesis. The answer is no. Let the WHO investigate and see what they state but the most likely answer is that this is the same as what has happened in the past multiple times.

Do you have proof of the wet market hypothesis? No you dont and no one has proof of the lab hypothesis. Such is the nature of hypothesies however you can make assertations. For mine it is MUCH more likely to have innocently escaped from a lab that actually specialises in making these viruses. It is too big a coincidence not to be.

If it has happened that is the only way I see it happening

If released purposely you'd release something far worse ...wouldn't you ??

and not in China you would think.

 

[happy_tiger]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....

 

[Tiger5150]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....

Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

 

[Curly_Tiger]

If you are open to views on covid beyond what your government and the mainstream media would like you to think, then this is some fantastic research with lots of supporting information
Michael P Senger has appeared on many news outlets in his efforts to expose the ugly side of this whole sorry mess
It’ll take a while to read but I’d thoroughly recommend
I’m not going to be drawn into the negativity that may ensue but I would ask all to consider its contents with an open mind and resist the cognitive dissonance which is the threat response of a closed mind

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1348324838167908352.html

 

[earl]

Reading this thread makes me think that Occam's razor has been thrown out or otherwise modified to: "forget the simplest explanation, it's the freaking lizard people taking over!"

Simplest explanation to me is that it was a virus being modified from a lab.
Question is, was it released deliberately..

And how nice to belittle people with comments such as 'lizard people' taking over.
Paint everyone with the same brush. I must be a Alex Jones or David Icke supper right because I go against mainstream views on a subject?

Do you have any proof of this ? Is this the first pandemic or epidemic mankind has suffered from ? Were these viruses always produced via labs ?

If you don't have any proof have you thought about getting mental health counseling ? If you continue to believe stuff without proof and with proof against what you are stating do you believe that means there is some mental health issue at play ?

Another demeaning statement regarding mental health.

So disguised swearing isn't allowed, but belittle others with disdainful statements like that is somewhat fine.

Viruses are studied, modified & experimented with all the time in virology labs. How hard is it to comprehend that?

So you don't have any proof to back up your loony tunes theory ? Geez that is a surprise.

You probably have a point. It's probably wrong to put people that have mental health illnesses in the same category as people like yourself. You have real problems with accepting reality but that it isn't fair to state that people who suffer from depression for instance are as delusional as what you are.

Maybe I should change my approach. You create and believe in crazy theories because you have an inability to think rationally and logically.

Still - answer the question. Where is your proof ?

Someone mentioned Occam's razor.
So I provided my conclusion of the simplest explanation.

So tell me, what type of things do they deal with in Virology labs?
Is it illogical to think a virus can be leaked from a lab?

That illogical that it must be a "loony tunes theory"..
Yeah ok mate..

Maybe your breathing in too much carbon dioxide with that mask.

This is such a load of palava and this goes for all these crazy theories that is was created in a lab.

The most logical explanation is like numerous viruses in the past it migrated from animals to humans via eating animal products. This has happened multiple times previously and it will probably happen again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

So does anyone have any proof regarding the lab hypothesis. The answer is no. Let the WHO investigate and see what they state but the most likely answer is that this is the same as what has happened in the past multiple times.


Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon and Q-anon believe it started in a lab in China,what more possible proof could anybody need?👽

Exactly. Loony tunes.

 

[happy_tiger]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....


Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

No I was arguing against the few that believe it was released purposely .......or thought it was made from scratch in a lab

 

[earl]

Reading this thread makes me think that Occam's razor has been thrown out or otherwise modified to: "forget the simplest explanation, it's the freaking lizard people taking over!"

Simplest explanation to me is that it was a virus being modified from a lab.
Question is, was it released deliberately..

And how nice to belittle people with comments such as 'lizard people' taking over.
Paint everyone with the same brush. I must be a Alex Jones or David Icke supper right because I go against mainstream views on a subject?

Do you have any proof of this ? Is this the first pandemic or epidemic mankind has suffered from ? Were these viruses always produced via labs ?

If you don't have any proof have you thought about getting mental health counseling ? If you continue to believe stuff without proof and with proof against what you are stating do you believe that means there is some mental health issue at play ?

Another demeaning statement regarding mental health.

So disguised swearing isn't allowed, but belittle others with disdainful statements like that is somewhat fine.

Viruses are studied, modified & experimented with all the time in virology labs. How hard is it to comprehend that?

So you don't have any proof to back up your loony tunes theory ? Geez that is a surprise.

You probably have a point. It's probably wrong to put people that have mental health illnesses in the same category as people like yourself. You have real problems with accepting reality but that it isn't fair to state that people who suffer from depression for instance are as delusional as what you are.

Maybe I should change my approach. You create and believe in crazy theories because you have an inability to think rationally and logically.

Still - answer the question. Where is your proof ?

Someone mentioned Occam's razor.
So I provided my conclusion of the simplest explanation.

So tell me, what type of things do they deal with in Virology labs?
Is it illogical to think a virus can be leaked from a lab?

That illogical that it must be a "loony tunes theory"..
Yeah ok mate..

Maybe your breathing in too much carbon dioxide with that mask.

This is such a load of palava and this goes for all these crazy theories that is was created in a lab.

Serious question Earl. What makes the theory that an effective gain of function coronavirus that contains bat and pangolin RNA/DNA could have escaped from the Lab that publishes its research into gain of function coronaviruses of bats and pangolins that is in the geographic centre of the outbreak and that had previously had significant biosecurity breaches less than two years earlier.........crazy?


The most logical explanation is like numerous viruses in the past it migrated from animals to humans via eating animal products. This has happened multiple times previously and it will probably happen again.

Most logical? In what way? Please explain your logically pathway that results in a gain of function bat/pangolin hybrid virus and explain why it is ***more*** logical than it leaving a lab that specialises in exactly that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

So does anyone have any proof regarding the lab hypothesis. The answer is no. Let the WHO investigate and see what they state but the most likely answer is that this is the same as what has happened in the past multiple times.

Do you have proof of the wet market hypothesis? No you dont and no one has proof of the lab hypothesis. Such is the nature of hypothesies however you can make assertations. For mine it is MUCH more likely to have innocently escaped from a lab that actually specialises in making these viruses. It is too big a coincidence not to be.

You are making a hell of an assumption when this has happened numerous times in the past and it doesn't happen from a lab.

I agree though that it could have happened from a lab. I just don't have proof. You believe it's more likely via a lab without any proof. I believe it's more likely via animals to humans because that is the way it has occurred in the past.

We've seen viruses occur like this multiple times. We've had pandemics and epidemics much worse than this one. The way to stop them that has worked in the past multiple times is the same basic approach we have now.

We should recognize that what we are seeing now is a medical miracle in that vaccines are being produced so quickly. That is the reality.

If it comes out that the virus was produced in a lab that would be a fantastic reason to stop research along these lines. I think though when you consider wet markets as being a really good environment for the transmission of these diseases I think the odds are that it was produced in a wet market.

 

[Tiger5150]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....


Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

No I was arguing against the few that believe it was released purposely .......or thought it was made from scratch in a lab

In the lab, in Wuhan, every day, day after day they created virus from scratch, in the lab. Viruses that have never existed in nature. Intentionally, with the full knowledge and approval of the whole scientific/medical community. A little from here, a little from there. A little bat, a little pangolin. This is exactly what they do (or at least did) and this is why the lab was specifically built and trained (by the US) as a BioSec Level 4 Lab. This is not hypothesis. This is not conspiracy. This is not QAnon. This is a scientific, published fact.

Im not saying that for 100% certain that it came from the lab. I dont know that, I cant know that 100% certain. IMO its unlikely that we can ever determine 100% where it came from.

What I am saying in this thread is that I do think it came from the lab, almost certainly accidentally. The reason I think this is that it is the most likely and logical way for it to happen. Again using occams razor, you have to consider that the lab is the least resistance path.

For mine it is way too much coincidence that there is a lab with previous biosecurity breaches that specifically creates and researches gain of function coronaviruses in bats and pangolins that are not encountered in nature at the specific geograhical centre of an epidemic of a gain of function coronavirus of bat and pangolin origin that has never previously been encountered in nature.

Others may not agree and genuinely think it came from the wet market and that is cool and their right. This is unlikely though due to the gain of function nature of the virus and the multiple RNA/DNA origin. Previous wet market outbreaks have not been gain of function and have all been single origin zoonotic viruses. Bird Flu, swine flu etc.

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is....well crazy.

 

[cochise]

Reading this thread makes me think that Occam's razor has been thrown out or otherwise modified to: "forget the simplest explanation, it's the freaking lizard people taking over!"

Simplest explanation to me is that it was a virus being modified from a lab.
Question is, was it released deliberately..

And how nice to belittle people with comments such as 'lizard people' taking over.
Paint everyone with the same brush. I must be a Alex Jones or David Icke supper right because I go against mainstream views on a subject?

Do you have any proof of this ? Is this the first pandemic or epidemic mankind has suffered from ? Were these viruses always produced via labs ?

If you don't have any proof have you thought about getting mental health counseling ? If you continue to believe stuff without proof and with proof against what you are stating do you believe that means there is some mental health issue at play ?

Another demeaning statement regarding mental health.

So disguised swearing isn't allowed, but belittle others with disdainful statements like that is somewhat fine.

Viruses are studied, modified & experimented with all the time in virology labs. How hard is it to comprehend that?

So you don't have any proof to back up your loony tunes theory ? Geez that is a surprise.

You probably have a point. It's probably wrong to put people that have mental health illnesses in the same category as people like yourself. You have real problems with accepting reality but that it isn't fair to state that people who suffer from depression for instance are as delusional as what you are.

Maybe I should change my approach. You create and believe in crazy theories because you have an inability to think rationally and logically.

Still - answer the question. Where is your proof ?

Someone mentioned Occam's razor.
So I provided my conclusion of the simplest explanation.

So tell me, what type of things do they deal with in Virology labs?
Is it illogical to think a virus can be leaked from a lab?

That illogical that it must be a "loony tunes theory"..
Yeah ok mate..

Maybe your breathing in too much carbon dioxide with that mask.

This is such a load of palava and this goes for all these crazy theories that is was created in a lab.

Serious question Earl. What makes the theory that an effective gain of function coronavirus that contains bat and pangolin RNA/DNA could have escaped from the Lab that publishes its research into gain of function coronaviruses of bats and pangolins that is in the geographic centre of the outbreak and that had previously had significant biosecurity breaches less than two years earlier.........crazy?


The most logical explanation is like numerous viruses in the past it migrated from animals to humans via eating animal products. This has happened multiple times previously and it will probably happen again.

Most logical? In what way? Please explain your logically pathway that results in a gain of function bat/pangolin hybrid virus and explain why it is ***more*** logical than it leaving a lab that specialises in exactly that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

So does anyone have any proof regarding the lab hypothesis. The answer is no. Let the WHO investigate and see what they state but the most likely answer is that this is the same as what has happened in the past multiple times.

Do you have proof of the wet market hypothesis? No you dont and no one has proof of the lab hypothesis. Such is the nature of hypothesies however you can make assertations. For mine it is MUCH more likely to have innocently escaped from a lab that actually specialises in making these viruses. It is too big a coincidence not to be.

You are making a hell of an assumption when this has happened numerous times in the past and it doesn't happen from a lab.

I agree though that it could have happened from a lab. I just don't have proof. You believe it's more likely via a lab without any proof. I believe it's more likely via animals to humans because that is the way it has occurred in the past.

We've seen viruses occur like this multiple times. We've had pandemics and epidemics much worse than this one. The way to stop them that has worked in the past multiple times is the same basic approach we have now.

We should recognize that what we are seeing now is a medical miracle in that vaccines are being produced so quickly. That is the reality.

If it comes out that the virus was produced in a lab that would be a fantastic reason to stop research along these lines. I think though when you consider wet markets as being a really good environment for the transmission of these diseases I think the odds are that it was produced in a wet market.

I agree with this, I don't think it is impossible that it started in the lab, that is why there is an investigation occurring at the moment. I won't agree that is definitely occurred in the lab until there is proof of that happening.

 

[earl]

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is…well crazy.

I disagree with this. There are numerous theories on this thread that show a complete disregard to reality.

The evidence is getting clearer that it wasn't produced via a lab.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-history

I don't think you have any context in relation to the environment that occurs within China in relation to eating exotic animals. It could have occurred in other ways as well.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scientists-strong-evidence-coronavirus-originated-naturally/story?id=70207409

https://abcnews.go.com/US/conspiracy-theorists-study-concludes-covid-19-laboratory-construct/story?id=69827832

The evidence so far is clearly on the side that this occurred naturally as it has in the past in numerous occasions.

Your belief is meaningless and at this point it is a conspiracy theory that Trumpists and the Qanon crowd like.

You could be right but the odds would be massively against your theory.

 

[cochise]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....


Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

No I was arguing against the few that believe it was released purposely .......or thought it was made from scratch in a lab


In the lab, in Wuhan, every day, day after day they created virus from scratch, in the lab. Viruses that have never existed in nature. Intentionally, with the full knowledge and approval of the whole scientific/medical community. A little from here, a little from there. A little bat, a little pangolin. This is exactly what they do (or at least did) and this is why the lab was specifically built and trained (by the US) as a BioSec Level 4 Lab. This is not hypothesis. This is not conspiracy. This is not QAnon. This is a scientific, published fact.

Im not saying that for 100% certain that it came from the lab. I dont know that, I cant know that 100% certain. IMO its unlikely that we can ever determine 100% where it came from.

What I am saying in this thread is that I do think it came from the lab, almost certainly accidentally. The reason I think this is that it is the most likely and logical way for it to happen. Again using occams razor, you have to consider that the lab is the least resistance path.

For mine it is way too much coincidence that there is a lab with previous biosecurity breaches that specifically creates and researches gain of function coronaviruses in bats and pangolins that are not encountered in nature at the specific geograhical centre of an epidemic of a gain of function coronavirus of bat and pangolin origin that has never previously been encountered in nature.

Others may not agree and genuinely think it came from the wet market and that is cool and their right. This is unlikely though due to the gain of function nature of the virus and the multiple RNA/DNA origin. Previous wet market outbreaks have not been gain of function and have all been single origin zoonotic viruses. Bird Flu, swine flu etc.

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is....well crazy.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that the idea the virus was developed in a lab indicates mental illness. It is definitely something that may have happened, but at this point there is no evidence or proof of that occurring.

By definition anyone that believes that it was created and released purposefully, that the virus doesn't exist or it is being manipulated to control people believe in a conspiracy theory.

 

[Tiger5150]

Reading this thread makes me think that Occam's razor has been thrown out or otherwise modified to: "forget the simplest explanation, it's the freaking lizard people taking over!"

Simplest explanation to me is that it was a virus being modified from a lab.
Question is, was it released deliberately..

And how nice to belittle people with comments such as 'lizard people' taking over.
Paint everyone with the same brush. I must be a Alex Jones or David Icke supper right because I go against mainstream views on a subject?

Do you have any proof of this ? Is this the first pandemic or epidemic mankind has suffered from ? Were these viruses always produced via labs ?

If you don't have any proof have you thought about getting mental health counseling ? If you continue to believe stuff without proof and with proof against what you are stating do you believe that means there is some mental health issue at play ?

Another demeaning statement regarding mental health.

So disguised swearing isn't allowed, but belittle others with disdainful statements like that is somewhat fine.

Viruses are studied, modified & experimented with all the time in virology labs. How hard is it to comprehend that?

So you don't have any proof to back up your loony tunes theory ? Geez that is a surprise.

You probably have a point. It's probably wrong to put people that have mental health illnesses in the same category as people like yourself. You have real problems with accepting reality but that it isn't fair to state that people who suffer from depression for instance are as delusional as what you are.

Maybe I should change my approach. You create and believe in crazy theories because you have an inability to think rationally and logically.

Still - answer the question. Where is your proof ?

Someone mentioned Occam's razor.
So I provided my conclusion of the simplest explanation.

So tell me, what type of things do they deal with in Virology labs?
Is it illogical to think a virus can be leaked from a lab?

That illogical that it must be a "loony tunes theory"..
Yeah ok mate..

Maybe your breathing in too much carbon dioxide with that mask.

This is such a load of palava and this goes for all these crazy theories that is was created in a lab.

Serious question Earl. What makes the theory that an effective gain of function coronavirus that contains bat and pangolin RNA/DNA could have escaped from the Lab that publishes its research into gain of function coronaviruses of bats and pangolins that is in the geographic centre of the outbreak and that had previously had significant biosecurity breaches less than two years earlier.........crazy?


The most logical explanation is like numerous viruses in the past it migrated from animals to humans via eating animal products. This has happened multiple times previously and it will probably happen again.

Most logical? In what way? Please explain your logically pathway that results in a gain of function bat/pangolin hybrid virus and explain why it is ***more*** logical than it leaving a lab that specialises in exactly that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

So does anyone have any proof regarding the lab hypothesis. The answer is no. Let the WHO investigate and see what they state but the most likely answer is that this is the same as what has happened in the past multiple times.

Do you have proof of the wet market hypothesis? No you dont and no one has proof of the lab hypothesis. Such is the nature of hypothesies however you can make assertations. For mine it is MUCH more likely to have innocently escaped from a lab that actually specialises in making these viruses. It is too big a coincidence not to be.

You are making a hell of an assumption when this has happened numerous times in the past and it doesn't happen from a lab.

I agree though that it could have happened from a lab. I just don't have proof. You believe it's more likely via a lab without any proof. I believe it's more likely via animals to humans because that is the way it has occurred in the past.

But it hasnt, and that is the whole point. Yes viruses such as H1N1, Birds Flu, Hendra etc have passed from animals to humans, no question but NONE of these viruses have gain of function features and they all have single origin RNA/DNA. What this means is that the host vector RNA/DNA of H1N1 is from a pig and that is the end of the story and the RNA/DNA sequencing is indicative of that infection. So what that means is it is a virus for which a pig is a host and the pig is infected and by coincidence the "hooks" on the virus also correlate to some human cells and we can catch it off the pig as well under certain circumstances and then of course human to human. All good so far and fits in with the wetmarket hypothesis.

Where the wetmarket hypothesis falls apart is that COVID19 has elements of bat ***and*** pangolin RNA/DNA and there are gain of function features within the RNA/DNA genomic sequence that indicate that the RNA has been split and rejoined (my albeit sketchy understanding of this is that all the bat RNA/DNA is in one part of the sequence, all the pangolin in another and this doesnt happen in nature).

What this means is that IT IS POSSIBLE that COVID was created in nature but for this to happen, a pangolin had to have gone into a cave (where they dont normally go) and somehow had an interaction with a bat, caught the virus and then somehow that pangolin or another infected pangolin to infect a different bat repeatedly over an extended period of time for the gain function nature of the virus and for the virus to NEVER encounter a human in that extended period of time that it was developing. It is almost impossible that this happened at the wet market due to the extended period of time that would be required.

So it IS possible that it is natural but it is dependent on VERY unlikely scenarios. OR, it escaped from a lab taht specialises in making exactly these viruses. I know which seems more likely.


We've seen viruses occur like this multiple times. We've had pandemics and epidemics much worse than this one.

As explained above. Not like this one.

>The way to stop them that has worked in the past multiple times is the same basic approach we have now.

We should recognize that what we are seeing now is a medical miracle in that vaccines are being produced so quickly. That is the reality.


No argument from me on this count. I wasnt making any assertions about treatment/mitigation/vaccines

If it comes out that the virus was produced in a lab that would be a fantastic reason to stop research along these lines. I think though when you consider wet markets as being a really good environment for the transmission of these diseases I think the odds are that it was produced in a wet market.

You are flat out wrong on this. This is EXACTLY the reason that the lab exists as stated in the CDC publication I posted a few posts back. It was created, in Wuhan in conjunction with and with training by the US as a research centre to develop strategies for containing/treating/preventing these viruses.

It is almost impossible for THIS virus to have developed in the wet market, but the fact that others have is a good enough reason to get rid of them IMO.

 

[Tiger5150]

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is…well crazy.

I disagree with this. There are numerous theories on this thread that show a complete disregard to reality.

The evidence is getting clearer that it wasn't produced via a lab.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-history

I don't think you have any context in relation to the environment that occurs within China in relation to eating exotic animals. It could have occurred in other ways as well.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/scientists-strong-evidence-coronavirus-originated-naturally/story?id=70207409

https://abcnews.go.com/US/conspiracy-theorists-study-concludes-covid-19-laboratory-construct/story?id=69827832

The evidence so far is clearly on the side that this occurred naturally as it has in the past in numerous occasions.

Im not meaning to be a smartalek Earl, but did you read those articles you posted? Beside the fact that they are editorial articles with no scientific rigor, the webmd article says in the same paragraph "Experts say SARS-CoV-2 originated in bats.........Still, the Wuhan market didn’t sell bats at the time of the outbreak." It did not come from bats at the wet market.

Your abc article says that "the novel coronavirus is not a human creation because it does not share any "previously used virus backbone." It likely arose, the study said, from a recombination of a virus found in bats and another virus, possibly originating from pangolins," which is EXACTLY what they do at the WIV BSL4 Lab at Wuhan. This is not my opinion, this is not a Trumpist thing (Im not a Trumpist), this is not a QAnon thing.....this is WHAT THEY DO ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN PEER REVIEWED RESEARCH PUBLICATION like I dont know.......THIS ONE.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797993/

This isnt even a theory, it is simply a fact. The Wuhan Institute of Virology reason to exist is to recombine chimaeric gain of function viruses from bats and other animals, such as pangolins, mice (in this case) and other viruses (like SARS in the published research) to investigate, like in the published research I linked, if they can infect humans and how it will work.

THIS IS SCIENCE! End of story. This is what they do, they publish it for the world to see and the world is not flat.

Your belief is meaningless and at this point it is a conspiracy theory that Trumpists and the Qanon crowd like.


A conspiracy theory? Based on the peer reviewed scientific research literature released by the Wuhan lab? Where is the conspiracy? Who is pulling the strings? Where is the grey area between what I am saying and the released research?

You could be right but the odds would be massively against your theory.

Its the other way around. Again this is not conspiracy or fantasy, its scientific fact. In 2019 Nature published the linked article below (which even has a header that backs the theory that it came naturally). This article outlines the risk of chimaeric virus research into gain of function virus creation such as the recombination of bat and pangolin viruses or bat and SARS or bat and mice. In this article, about the Wuhan research, *"Simon Wain-Hobson, a virologist at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, points out that the researchers have created a novel virus that “grows remarkably well” in human cells. “If the virus escaped, nobody could predict the trajectory,”*

The article goes onto quote Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist and biodefence expert at Rutgers University in Piscataway, New Jersey, who says **(in 2019)** of the research conducted at teh Wuhan Lab, *"“The only impact of this work is the creation, in a lab, of a new, non-natural risk,”*

https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debate-over-risky-research-1.18787

In 2014, the US government banned all research into chimaeric and gain of function virus research of the type carried out at WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan because they deemed the risk of the creation and escape of new pathogen virus to be too great. This was after biosecurity breaches at the US CDC Centre at Atlanta. The research at Wuhan continued, including the 2017 paper linked above and was continuing at the time of the COVID outbreak.

https://www.nature.com/news/us-suspends-risky-disease-research-1.16192

Earl, this is actual published and peer reviewed science that spells out not only what is done at the lab (create chimaeric gain of function viruses like COVID19) but also the published risks of doing it which is exactly what has happened.

Again, Im not saying that it is 100% set in stone that it has been proven that it escaped from the lab. I dont actually think it CAN be proved or disproved, but again the coincidence is too great for me to discount it.

Earl, there is a weight of scientific peer reviewed publications of what they were doing in Wuhan, which was creating EXACTLY this type of chimaeric gain of function virus that simply does not exist in nature naturally (although is not impossible). There is also overwhelming scientific publication of the risks of what could happen if you do this, to the extent that the US banned it. The risk of what could happen looks VERY MUCH like what DID happen.

Ironically your continual dismissal of this overwhelming scientific publications as some sort of QAnon conspiracy is the equivalence of being a flat earther.

 

[JD Tiger]

Conspiracy theories are like religion,everybody else's views are completely wrong because my conspiracy theory is fact.No matter what you say you will never change somebody's point of view if they believe they are correct,logic will not change a closed mind and most peoples minds are closed .

The thing that amazes me is these guys tell other people that they are just thinking differently. They state it's about being controlled.

Have you noticed they never provide good quality data or facts ? They sprout some loony tune theory as if it's fact and then state that science is dodgy.

Personally I think a lot of science isn't up to standard but that is the process of scientific study. So you produce a study in a structured way and have it peer reviewed. Sometimes this process fails in that dodgy science is produced. The point is though the people critiquing this approach want significantly less rigor.

I'm stating science has it's issues and ideally we can improve on that. These loonies with mental health issues are stating the science is dodgy and lets lower the standards so that crazy Internet theories are now considered fact.

I said this previously, but I will try one last time. Someone doesn't have a mental illness just because you disagree with them. That isn't how it works. You have your thoughts and opinions, good on you, but that's all they are. Opinions, not facts. Even if the other person is ultimately wrong (if such a thing could be proven), then they are wrong, mistaken, not mentally ill.

People don't all think the same, they don't all reason the same, they don't see two things and take the same thing away from it. People apply logic subjectively, it's not a maths problem, there's not one absolute right answer.

It comes across as very closed-minded. I also read some things on here which I consider as rubbish, but that's merely but my opinion, that doesn't make it absolute. I obviously have a different opinion than in you in what constitutes mental illness (as I believe you will find does most people who's worked or had experiences in/with mental illness), that doesn't mean I think you have a mental illness.

There is a difference between an opinion that is something that is opinion based and an opinion that is refuted by evidence.

I'm cool with different opinions. You can believe that our forward pack will smash another forward pack or our backs are crap or whatever. That is called an opinion.

It isn't an opinion that the mortality rate from COVID is .01% or that lockdowns don't work or that COVID is false.

Can you tell the difference between and opinion and facts because there is a difference.

Someone who continually denies reality has mental health issues.

I'm not close minded at all. I'm completely open minded. I'm happy to discuss opinions but you have to do that based on facts.

I'll try and give an example. If you state that you believe that COVID isn't that bad compared to previous pandemics as the mortality rate is lower than for instance the spanish flu that you can debate the facts. That isn't what is happening here.

What is happening here is a complete refutation of facts and alternative facts being produced which are patent lies.

The thing is, all the stuff you are saying about the corona virus, and so on I completely agree with you. That all makes sense to me.

I am not sure I agree with you and others about how opinions need to be proven and backed up by facts, and to discuss opinions you present facts to dispute them and so on, but that's fine. I think I'm in the minority there, and fair enough. Opinions to me are subjective, and whatever 'facts' are used to support them are like statistics, totally manipulatable and dependant on so many factors that they aren't absolute at all.

"It isn’t an opinion that the mortality rate from COVID is .01% or that lockdowns don’t work or that COVID is false", let me quickly debunk that these are facts. Morbility rate of covid being .01%, every day there are more cases, more deaths, so that number is fluctuating, not stable. You could say the fact is it's approximately that for now, and yes that appears to be right, assuming the published numbers are right, but that assumption makes it not a fact.

That lockdowns work is a fact, well I agree that I think they do, but it depends how a person defines it when they are determining whether it 'works' or not. That's way too broad to be a fact, it's way too subjective.

I'm just trying to point out that I don't think it's fair or accurate that just because someone thinks differently then you that you're claiming they have mental health issues.

What's happening here, is that people are being stubborn and not open minded, and not being open to other people's views. Some here believe the lockdowns are detrimental to society, and have lots of opportunity cost, it's not a mental health issue to believe that. Some people believe they are right in their opinion, and I doubt anything anyone will say will change that. I think perhaps both you and I fall in that category.

 

[Tiger5150]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....


Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

No I was arguing against the few that believe it was released purposely .......or thought it was made from scratch in a lab


In the lab, in Wuhan, every day, day after day they created virus from scratch, in the lab. Viruses that have never existed in nature. Intentionally, with the full knowledge and approval of the whole scientific/medical community. A little from here, a little from there. A little bat, a little pangolin. This is exactly what they do (or at least did) and this is why the lab was specifically built and trained (by the US) as a BioSec Level 4 Lab. This is not hypothesis. This is not conspiracy. This is not QAnon. This is a scientific, published fact.

Im not saying that for 100% certain that it came from the lab. I dont know that, I cant know that 100% certain. IMO its unlikely that we can ever determine 100% where it came from.

What I am saying in this thread is that I do think it came from the lab, almost certainly accidentally. The reason I think this is that it is the most likely and logical way for it to happen. Again using occams razor, you have to consider that the lab is the least resistance path.

For mine it is way too much coincidence that there is a lab with previous biosecurity breaches that specifically creates and researches gain of function coronaviruses in bats and pangolins that are not encountered in nature at the specific geograhical centre of an epidemic of a gain of function coronavirus of bat and pangolin origin that has never previously been encountered in nature.

Others may not agree and genuinely think it came from the wet market and that is cool and their right. This is unlikely though due to the gain of function nature of the virus and the multiple RNA/DNA origin. Previous wet market outbreaks have not been gain of function and have all been single origin zoonotic viruses. Bird Flu, swine flu etc.

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is....well crazy.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that the idea the virus was developed in a lab indicates mental illness. It is definitely something that may have happened, but at this point there is no evidence or proof of that occurring.

Earl said regarding someone believing that the virus may have originated in the lab

*"This is the point. To me it’s a mental health issue. There are no facts to these crazy theories. There is so much evidence against these crazy theories.

The obvious conclusion is that these people have mental health problems.?"*


By definition anyone that believes that it was created and released purposefully, that the virus doesn't exist or it is being manipulated to control people believe in a conspiracy theory.

This is basically my whole point in this part of the thread. It is NOT conspiracy theory to believe that the virus could be created in the WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan. I have posted here stacks of publications showing that this is exactly what they do, create chimaeric gain of function viruses to study if they are transmissible to humans. It is EXACTLY what they do and why the lab was created, so its not a crazy conspiracy to suggest that they do what they prove and show to the world that they do.

I am genuinely surprised about the level of argument into something that is essentially unarguable. I think it has a political basis in that if someone like me says this, it is taken as anti-China/Pro Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon/Right wing (I am Anti China, Im NOT Pro Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon and consider myself centrist) etc etc and as a result anyone holding the opposite beliefs will react in a knee jerk reaction.

What I am saying has no political basis, they are merely statements of facts.

 

[cochise]

I guess my question would to the points raised is this

So some viruses form by themselves or are they all leaks

Bird Flu Swine Flu .....


If you are genuinely interested Happy, go and look at the videos I recently posted in this thread. They are by an evolutionary biologist that specialises in bats and he gives a pretty good explanation of it all.

If you cant be bothered, the tldr version is this.

All viruses are merely small segments of genetic material (some DNA some RNA) covered in lipids (fat) with hooks that enable them to attach to certain types of cells (vary between different viruses). Every time a virus cell hooks onto a target cell, it basically injects its RNA/DNA into the target cell and uses the target cells as an incubator in which it replicates itself many times over with numerous "new" virus cells bursting out of the target cell.

Every time the virus does this and replicates it runs the risk of changing (mutating) very slightly either from replication errors or by interaction with the RNA/DNA of the target cell. This is partly how the genomic sequencing of COVID works.

COVID19 contains genetic material from bats and pangolins and these two animals do not share habitat. This means that at some stage a pangolin has to have caught it from a bat or vice versa and probably a number of times. The variation would take a lot of time to get to the stage that it is and it is unlikely that it would happen naturally in the wild without having been discovered, particularly as it is a zoonotic virus that effects humans.

Still tldr? A virus can exist in nature but varies/mutates slightly as it replicates. Would take a long time of bats catching it from pangolins and back and forth to get to COVID19. Or alternatively it could have been developed (for good benign scientific/medical reasons) in a lab that exists in Wuhan, that is a Biosecurity Level 4 facility that by their own published information specialises in coronavirus virus research into gain of function (intentionally making it worse) virus from bats and pangolins.

I did know some of that ..some I didn't so i appreciate all the trouble taht went into that

But my question in short was more this .....you can believe the virus was created by nature or you can believe it was nurtured

But as we have all learnt and seen if it was nurtured as some are suggesting ...it only takes one set of loose lips to sink the whole entire battleship .....and with the money that would be attached to delivering that info to the press ....

And as we have seen in the case of WOMD ......people are always prepared to spill the beans ..in the end

And if you want to blame the Chinese ...what in the end do they get out of it .......the world economies will bounce even higher out of it than at the start .......it wouldn't end Western Civilization ......the only thing would be something that should scare everyone ...they try an even worse virus next .....

I believe nature created the virus ......and we should all pray that is the case


I think you (and others here) are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5.

The lab in Wuhan WAS creating viruses (including coronaviruses from bats and pangolins) and INTENTIONALLY making them worse. This is called "gain of function" research. This isnt conspiratorial QAnon stuff, this is published information, from the lab itself. It isnt a secret and it isnt malevolent, they were doing it with the knowledge and approval of the whole world. They were trained in how to do it by the US and even in Australia. It is legitimate and important scientific and medical research.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/5/18-0220_article


The hypothesis that the virus came from the BSCL4 Lab in Wuhan, isnt suggesting that China was weaponising the virus (well they were effectively but without the intent of using it as a weapon), but that there are MANY ways that a gain of function virus (including a bat/pangolin mutation which COVID is) could escape the lab such as on someones clothing, or a worker there could have become infected with it and gone home with it (patient zero).

In 2018 the US raised concerns with China regarding breaches of security at the lab but China blocked US efforts to investigate.

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/chinese-lab-checkered-safety-record-draws-scrutiny-over-covid-19
https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

This seriously is the path of least resistance occams razor hypothesis.

Doesn't explain why you would then release it ....


IMO the most obvious and likely scenario is it want released. In this lab every day they are creating these viruses and working on them in order to make them "worse" (gain of function) in part to learn how to deal with them if they get out into the wild. The reason this lab is designated Biosec Level 4 is it has to meet incredible standards of security in order to prevent these pathogens from getting out. IMO the lost likely is that it has somehow gotten out by a breach in biosecurity protocols. Concerns were raised two years earlier of lapses in these protocols. The virus could have left the lab on someones clothing or in a workers lungs. This hypothesis does not suggest it was intentionally released.

So why did 2+2=5

I never suggested it wasn't in a lab ...I was saying God help us all if it was purposely released .....


Because I read you post (and others) to suggest that if it was created in a lab that it logically follows that it was purposely released. This is not the most logical outcome. It is much more logical that it left on someones clothes or in their lungs.

No I was arguing against the few that believe it was released purposely .......or thought it was made from scratch in a lab


In the lab, in Wuhan, every day, day after day they created virus from scratch, in the lab. Viruses that have never existed in nature. Intentionally, with the full knowledge and approval of the whole scientific/medical community. A little from here, a little from there. A little bat, a little pangolin. This is exactly what they do (or at least did) and this is why the lab was specifically built and trained (by the US) as a BioSec Level 4 Lab. This is not hypothesis. This is not conspiracy. This is not QAnon. This is a scientific, published fact.

Im not saying that for 100% certain that it came from the lab. I dont know that, I cant know that 100% certain. IMO its unlikely that we can ever determine 100% where it came from.

What I am saying in this thread is that I do think it came from the lab, almost certainly accidentally. The reason I think this is that it is the most likely and logical way for it to happen. Again using occams razor, you have to consider that the lab is the least resistance path.

For mine it is way too much coincidence that there is a lab with previous biosecurity breaches that specifically creates and researches gain of function coronaviruses in bats and pangolins that are not encountered in nature at the specific geograhical centre of an epidemic of a gain of function coronavirus of bat and pangolin origin that has never previously been encountered in nature.

Others may not agree and genuinely think it came from the wet market and that is cool and their right. This is unlikely though due to the gain of function nature of the virus and the multiple RNA/DNA origin. Previous wet market outbreaks have not been gain of function and have all been single origin zoonotic viruses. Bird Flu, swine flu etc.

Others may not agree with the lab hypothesis and may feel it simply a MASSIVE coincidence but to suggest that it is crazy, has no factual basis, that it is a conspiracy theory and indicates mental illness is....well crazy.

I don't think anyone here has suggested that the idea the virus was developed in a lab indicates mental illness. It is definitely something that may have happened, but at this point there is no evidence or proof of that occurring.


Earl said regarding someone believing that the virus may have originated in the lab

*"This is the point. To me it’s a mental health issue. There are no facts to these crazy theories. There is so much evidence against these crazy theories.

The obvious conclusion is that these people have mental health problems.?"*


By definition anyone that believes that it was created and released purposefully, that the virus doesn't exist or it is being manipulated to control people believe in a conspiracy theory.

This is basically my whole point in this part of the thread. It is NOT conspiracy theory to believe that the virus could be created in the WIV BSL4 Lab Wuhan. I have posted here stacks of publications showing that this is exactly what they do, create chimaeric gain of function viruses to study if they are transmissible to humans. It is EXACTLY what they do and why the lab was created, so its not a crazy conspiracy to suggest that they do what they prove and show to the world that they do.

I am genuinely surprised about the level of argument into something that is essentially unarguable. I think it has a political basis in that if someone like me says this, it is taken as anti-China/Pro Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon/Right wing etc etc and as a result anyone holding the opposite beliefs will react in a knee jerk reaction.

What I am saying has no political basis, they are merely statements of facts.

I agree it is not a conspiracy theory that the virus could have originated in a lab, that is why there are ongoing investigations.

The issue is actually people a couple of post above yours who are stating such ideas of the military removing Biden from office and reinstalling Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon, or that the virus doesn't exist, or was purposefully released, or is being manipulated to control the masses. All these are conspiracy theories and are what most people are responding to when they are talking about conspiracy theories in relation to covid.

 

[cochise]

If you are open to views on covid beyond what your government and the mainstream media would like you to think, then this is some fantastic research with lots of supporting information
Michael P Senger has appeared on many news outlets in his efforts to expose the ugly side of this whole sorry mess
It’ll take a while to read but I’d thoroughly recommend
I’m not going to be drawn into the negativity that may ensue but I would ask all to consider its contents with an open mind and resist the cognitive dissonance which is the threat response of a closed mind

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1348324838167908352.html



Curly people live in fear and lash out when they don't like an opinion that makes them think in a logic way they have been preprogam it will shock them when the US military take over the US lock up Biden and reinstall Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon as president

This post has no relation to the topic being discussed in this thread. Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[hank37w]

If you are open to views on covid beyond what your government and the mainstream media would like you to think, then this is some fantastic research with lots of supporting information
Michael P Senger has appeared on many news outlets in his efforts to expose the ugly side of this whole sorry mess
It’ll take a while to read but I’d thoroughly recommend
I’m not going to be drawn into the negativity that may ensue but I would ask all to consider its contents with an open mind and resist the cognitive dissonance which is the threat response of a closed mind

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1348324838167908352.html



Curly people live in fear and lash out when they don't like an opinion that makes them think in a logic way they have been preprogam it will shock them when the US military take over the US lock up Biden and reinstall Trump, who is a convicted Rapist and Felon as president

Make sure you remind us all
of your scoop when it happens...
Whens it due to happen?

Ink, you should have worked it out by now.
Like everything else on here, it's due to happen in 48 hours.

 

[Guest]

If my opinion was the sky is green, I am either lying, delusional or suffering from some form of vision impairment. Either way my opinion is not really valuable except to a medical professional trying to treat me.

This is the point. To me it's a mental health issue. ***There are no facts to these crazy theories.*** ***There is so much evidence against these crazy theories.***

The obvious conclusion is that these people have mental health problems.


Whoah hang on. Mental health problems? In your opinion.

There are many facts to support the theory that the virus escaped or was released from the Biosecurity Level 4 Lab in Wuhan that was specifically studying (and have publicly released papers on ) gain of function tests on coronavirus in bats and pangolins (COVID has genetic material of both). I am aware of no facts that disprove this theory and would be grateful for you to point me in the right direction of these facts.

It is the simplest, most logical, most fact based and least conspiratorial theory that the virus came from the Level 4 lab in Wuhan. It is actually more far fetched that it came from the "wet market".

I've provided a heap of information in my previous post, but would be interested to see/hear your facts that prove this not to be the case and to call my mental health into question.

Isn't that why an investigation team has entered China, to determine what exactly happened?

I don't think we'll ever get the true story here though - China will compromise the WHO investigation by not giving them the appropriate level of access to truly determine how this virus morphed itself across the world.

I wouldn't rule out that this virus was developed and planted to see how it would react in human populace - to me there's not enough conclusive evidence to say it definitely came from one of Batman's offspring - but in reality I'll be surprised if we ever get the true story.

 

[Cultured_Bogan]

There's that magic 6% number again. Has anyone produced a source for that figure?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Here are the stats. 2 million deaths with a mortality rate at about 2%. Those figures are probably under stated.

No, I'm referring to the stat that 6% of people who died with COVID died solely of COVID, rather than co-morbidities accelerating and enhancing the damage and death that COVID brings.