The Papenhuyzen decision...

[pawsandclaws1]

Let's not forget Papenhuyzen backed himself when WTs failed too do it. Slater, Munster, Hughes, Drinkwater and Papenhuyzen. He knew, he always knew. We didn't and that is our downfall. Hopefully we've learnt that judging a player by their size is not a fair guide of talent or success. Thurston is no better example.

 

[Magpie1969]

I see it this way.
When a representative from a successful club invites you and your parents to their club with all flights and accommodation arranged and paid for.
A current player picks you up from the airport.
You meet with Craig Bellamy and Cam Smith who tells you their plan for you and why you have been chosen for a future role if you work hard. They appear to know more about you then yourself. Due diligence at its finest.
You meet with the legend Billy Slater who will be your mentor now and in his retirement.
You meet medical experts that explain how your hamstring issues can be overcome with the correct attention.
You look at their facilities and support network.
You then sign on the dotted line knowing future success is highly likely.

 

[JD Tiger]

I see it this way. When a representative from a successful club invites you and your parents to their club with all flights and accommodation arranged and paid for.
A current player picks you up from the airport.
You meet with Craig Bellamy and Cam Smith who tells you their plan for you and why you have been chosen for a future role if you work hard. They appear to know more about you then yourself. Due diligence at its finest.
You meet with the legend Billy Slater who will be your mentor now and in his retirement.
You meet medical experts that explain how your hamstring issues can be overcome with the correct attention.
You look at their facilities and support network.
You then sign on the dotted line knowing future success is highly likely.

Grubby football tactics and lack of any moral integrity aside, they certainly know how to run a professional organisation. It's truly a business to them. Where money rules, and they strive for success at any cost, taking any advantage they can.

To compete with them we have to get to that level (of professionalism at least). Because realistically, why wouldn't the next Paps want to leave us and go there tomorrow as well?

I think Madge is a good choice to steer the ship though, hopefully he is our answer.

 

[earl]

Gosh Earl, I wasn’t aware that WT coaching was superior than Storms, Eels and Roosters. There must be some other reason those teams made finals and we finished14th? I wonder what it could be? According to you … we give them our best players and they don’t improve.

There are people that believe you can coach someone to greatness. There are people who understand reality and know that talent trumps everything else. You can be talented, do little work, have personal problems including drug habits and still be a great player.

One of the best athletes I've ever seen is Maradona. There isn't a rugby league player that has been born that can compare with the ability of that guy. His personal life was a mess.

It's pretty obvious that the teams that out-performed us had better rosters. That is the no 1 determinant in relation to performance. Coaching can make a difference but not in the way you are talking about. A team can have a good game plan for the opposite team and some set plays and defensive and offensive structures.

Out under performance isn't a simple issue. We need a better squad. Unfortunately though we've had some good players come through who wanted to leave or we didn't hold onto. That isn't all the clubs fault or down to some idea that the other clubs offer specialized coaching to improve performance because the data or facts don't support that opinion and we see that with players like Tedesco, Moses, Matterson and Woods. If anything I'd argue our specialized coaching is better than other teams because players who leave us tend not to go onto greatness.

RP is a different case but he was very young when he left us and I suspect we would have coached him to being just as good as what he is now.

 

[earl]

I'll add one more point about players leaving clubs. It happens to all clubs including Melbourne. They have a young kid named Tino playing for them who looks great. He has been poached from them to go to the Gold Coast. They also have 2 great wingers who won't be there next year.

Players are going to leave clubs. The Tigers just needs to do better in managing their cap and getting a better roster on the park consistently.

 

[hank37w]

I see it this way.
When a representative from a successful club invites you and your parents to their club with all flights and accommodation arranged and paid for.
A current player picks you up from the airport.
You meet with Craig Bellamy and Cam Smith who tells you their plan for you and why you have been chosen for a future role if you work hard. They appear to know more about you then yourself. Due diligence at its finest.
You meet with the legend Billy Slater who will be your mentor now and in his retirement.
You meet medical experts that explain how your hamstring issues can be overcome with the correct attention.
You look at their facilities and support network.
You then sign on the dotted line knowing future success is highly likely.

And then you wake up and you are still at the Wests Tigers. Alas it was only a dream.

 

[crazycat]

I'll add one more point about players leaving clubs. It happens to all clubs including Melbourne. They have a young kid named Tino playing for them who looks great. He has been poached from them to go to the Gold Coast. They also have 2 great wingers who won't be there next year.

Players are going to leave clubs. The Tigers just needs to do better in managing their cap and getting a better roster on the park consistently.

I was thinking exactly about this.
We have about 2 million dollars worth of Cap money playing below #18. Reynolds, Packer are the main culprits here*. Need I mention the underperforming Mbye, but at least he can make the 17.

The biggest failure of our recruitment strategy was picking people in the 600k range and offering them 700k. Newcastle, Parra, etc recruited named stars for far more money. It's worked for Parra and at least Newcastle has Klemmer and Pearce starting every week.

*Honestly I don't get why their signings went so poorly. Matalino played better then Packer and was regularly turning up till retired. Packer really was a force with St George much like Paulo or RCG is at Parra now. Likewise while Reynolds wasn't firing in his last year with the Dogs, he made SOO and the finals as 5/8 with them. Moses Mbye, well who couldn't see that coming.

 

[twentyforty]

Gosh Earl, I wasn’t aware that WT coaching was superior than Storms, Eels and Roosters. There must be some other reason those teams made finals and we finished14th? I wonder what it could be? According to you … we give them our best players and they don’t improve.

There are people that believe you can coach someone to greatness. There are people who understand reality and know that talent trumps everything else. You can be talented, do little work, have personal problems including drug habits and still be a great player.

One of the best athletes I've ever seen is Maradona. There isn't a rugby league player that has been born that can compare with the ability of that guy. His personal life was a mess.

It's pretty obvious that the teams that out-performed us had better rosters. That is the no 1 determinant in relation to performance. Coaching can make a difference but not in the way you are talking about. A team can have a good game plan for the opposite team and some set plays and defensive and offensive structures.

Out under performance isn't a simple issue. We need a better squad. Unfortunately though we've had some good players come through who wanted to leave or we didn't hold onto. That isn't all the clubs fault or down to some idea that the other clubs offer specialized coaching to improve performance because the data or facts don't support that opinion and we see that with players like Tedesco, Moses, Matterson and Woods. If anything I'd argue our specialized coaching is better than other teams because players who leave us tend not to go onto greatness.

RP is a different case but he was very young when he left us and I suspect we would have coached him to being just as good as what he is now.

Earl, while you make some valid points, we’re talking about two different topics now. You’re eluding to “the value of natural talent” while my subject matter is “retention of existing talent, reaching and maintaining peak performance of existing talent”.
Its tough going to try and buy in talent when you’re losing talent out the back door, because the players’ motives for moving are invariably the same. They want to reach their full potential and get paid accordingly.

 

[earl]

Its tough going to try and buy in talent when you’re losing talent out the back door, because the players’ motives for moving are invariably the same. They want to reach their full potential and get paid accordingly.

I think there are a couple of questions to ask:-

1. Do you know why players left the club. It's really hard to read someones mind so the answer has to be no.
2. Do you know the coaching that occurs within our system and the top teams that brings these players through. Do you know how impactful these coaching systems are to the players development ? I think the answer is no.
3. Is there any proof that players have gotten considerably better coaching by improving their game considerably. I don't think that there is that proof available. You look at guys like Woods, Tedesco, Matterson and Mitch Moses and in my opinion that argument doesn't really hold.

I don't know why the club has the roster is has today but I hope we improve over time and I think we are heading in the right direction.

 

[Milky]

Bad decision..yes but not as bad as Cowboys...Imagine they didn’t mess up

Spine

Kalyn Ponga
Michael Morgan
Brendon Smith

Back row

Bill Kikau
Jason Taumalolo

 

[TheDaBoss]

Bad decision..yes but not as bad as Cowboys...Imagine they didn’t mess up

Spine

Kalyn Ponga
Michael Morgan
Brendon Smith

Back row

Bill Kikau
Jason Taumalolo

Thats yum

 

[Harvey]

So you think Tedesco became that good playing with WT. Potter may have given him a couple of tips but no one on one FB specific coaching.

What nonsense is this? Michael Potter is a 2x Dally M winning and 2x premiership-winning fullback. The Dally Ms were 7 seasons apart, no less, at two different clubs, which tells you how good he was to win the award at either end of his career and with different club settings.

You reckon Potter doesn't know how to give specific fullback coaching?

Mitchell Moses has received 1-on-1 coaching from the all-time greatest halfback in rugby league and he's still a critical failure.

That's pretty high praise of Jason Taylor

 

[twentyforty]

So you think Tedesco became that good playing with WT. Potter may have given him a couple of tips but no one on one FB specific coaching.

What nonsense is this? Michael Potter is a 2x Dally M winning and 2x premiership-winning fullback. The Dally Ms were 7 seasons apart, no less, at two different clubs, which tells you how good he was to win the award at either end of his career and with different club settings.

You reckon Potter doesn't know how to give specific fullback coaching?

Mitchell Moses has received 1-on-1 coaching from the all-time greatest halfback in rugby league and he's still a critical failure.

That's pretty high praise of Jason Taylor

I’m curious now, to know why Moses claims to have not received any halfback training from “the all-time greatest halfback in rugby league”?

 

[twentyforty]

In fairness to Kelly Egan he only had a few years with WT as GM Football, but I have to say, Barry O’Farrell said some nice things about Kelly without mentioning a single achievement which could be measured. Anyway, I wish him well and hope he does well in his new role as union boss. Let’s not be too hard on him for one error?

 

[Madge]

Why are we still talking about this

 

[twentyforty]

I think it may be because some of us are on our back in traction with nothing better to do?

 

[mike]

So you think Tedesco became that good playing with WT. Potter may have given him a couple of tips but no one on one FB specific coaching.

What nonsense is this? Michael Potter is a 2x Dally M winning and 2x premiership-winning fullback. The Dally Ms were 7 seasons apart, no less, at two different clubs, which tells you how good he was to win the award at either end of his career and with different club settings.

You reckon Potter doesn't know how to give specific fullback coaching?

Mitchell Moses has received 1-on-1 coaching from the all-time greatest halfback in rugby league and he's still a critical failure.

That's pretty high praise of Jason Taylor

I’m curious now, to know why Moses claims to have not received any halfback training from “the all-time greatest halfback in rugby league”?

Ego, just one big ego.

 

[twentyforty]

Talking about Ryan Papenhuyzen, he’s 3rd favourite for MoM in the GF.

 

[Spacecub]

Clive Churchill medalist....great decision Egan you Muppet

 

[gallagher]

Melb made him the player he is. He wouldn't be, and wasnt , the player he is if he stayed here.